Investiture spell...

[Bearcat]

> For example, if
>Ghoere manages to conquer the province Bellam in Roesone, it would
>require the Highpriest of the Impregnable Heart of Haelyn to perform the
>ceremony; but, the IHH is not likely to do this because of its support
>for Roesone.

It isn't really all that difficult. Ghoere can just take a "invest
me or watch your churches burn to the ground" attitude.

Bearcat
lcgm@elogica.com.br
Come visit Bearcat's Birthright Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/6204

[Lee]

About the question of needing a priest with "local" holdings to invest a
conquering regent: no, I don't see it as a problem at all. It should be
time-consuming to absorb a new province.

Lee.

[Neil Barnes]

On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Brian Stoner wrote:
> As an investiture ceremony uses the realm spell investiture, it is
> implied that whenever an investiture ceremony is performed, it must be
> performed by a priest regent with at least a level 1 holding in the
> province that is being transferred. However, this can be a great
> problem for the less than nice regents of Cerilia.

Ah, but when you occupy the province you can knock all the incumbent
temples down to holdings (0) & allow your allies to create temples
holdings in the occupied provinces & invest you. Complicated? Yes.

neil

[Tripp Elliott]

Neil Barnes wrote:
>
> On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Brian Stoner wrote:
> > As an investiture ceremony uses the realm spell investiture, it is
> > implied that whenever an investiture ceremony is performed, it must be
> > performed by a priest regent with at least a level 1 holding in the
> > province that is being transferred. However, this can be a great
> > problem for the less than nice regents of Cerilia.
>
> Ah, but when you occupy the province you can knock all the incumbent
> temples down to holdings (0) & allow your allies to create temples
> holdings in the occupied provinces & invest you. Complicated? Yes.
>
> neil

Ok, I disagree with all of this. There is no rule that the investiture
must occur in the Province with the holdings being invested.

To back up this argument, let me point out that the concept of Realm
Investiture exists, and it would be impossible to be in multiple
provinces at a time. Let me also point out, that it is possible to
forcibly invest holdings that your armies do not control. It's gonna be
darn hard to have a friendly temple there too, or to be there to do the
investiture, so once again, I say it's not necessary.

Since I don't think you need to be in the Province affected, it is not
necessary to have a friendly temple there. A friendly temple in already
friendly lands should be sufficient. As a final argument, try doing it
your way, and figure out how to invest a 0/7 Province, hehe.

Tripp

[JLR881@aol.co]

In a message dated 97-11-17 14:43:01 EST, you write:

Ghoere manages to conquer the province Bellam in Roesone, it would
>require the Highpriest of the Impregnable Heart of Haelyn to perform the
>ceremony; but, the IHH is not likely to do this because of its support
>for Roesone.

It isn't really all that difficult. Ghoere can just take a "invest
me or watch your churches burn to the ground" attitude.
>>
Actually, its even simpler than that. After whipping Roesone, Ghoere
can have ANY Priest Regent who would want to be on Ghoere's good side perform
the ceremony, and those that don't like it, can worry about Gaevin Taele
burning THEIR churches to the ground.

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Neil Barnes wrote:

> When one regent dies his successor becomes regent immediately (cf
> Pratchett's Wyrd Sisters) and recieves the regency from the provinces in
> the normal way. As Ed pointed out a few weeks ago if no heir has been
> invested the land chooses a 'successor' itself. If the regent invests an
> heir beforehand, then this confirms the succession. Same spell,
> different use.

The BoM says that this is USUALLY what happens, and you can ensure it
happening with a priestly spell called "ensure inheritance" (I think, book
not right by me). But sometimes, the land itself just decides that the
designated heir is just not right for the land, and chooses for itself.
It's pretty rare, but it happens, particularly in cases where someone
coerces a regent into making him heir of the domain and then kills the
regent. Also, sometimes the heir-designation "doesn't take" and the heir
immediately inherits some or most of the holdings, but not all, and must
go out and invest the rest of them.

> > Since I don't think you need to be in the Province affected, it is not
> > necessary to have a friendly temple there. A friendly temple in already
> > friendly lands should be sufficient. As a final argument, try doing it
> > your way, and figure out how to invest a 0/7 Province, hehe.

Easy: 0 level temple holdings. There are plenty of these, esp. in Rjuric
land, where the tribes that use the land are sparce enough and there
seldom enough to leave the land in a virtually pristane state, although
the stone circles of Erik's churchs can still be found there.

> There are two ways a level 0 province reaches that level - the first is
> if it looses population, in which case the controlling regent retains
> control, the second is if it's created, in which case the creating
> regent holds it. As long as the realm is passed along through normal
> succession, it goes with the rest of the provinces. If the regent dies
> without an heir it becomes uncontrolled.

I rule that once a province is created, it must also be invested in order
to add to the character's RP collection, but that once this ceremony takes
place, any further holding creation or ruling is automatically invested.

> I'd only require something along the lines of a Create Province action
> to seize a level 0 province. The regent gets no regency points from it,
> and I see it more as an administrative task than anything else. It's
> probably possible for 2 or more regents to claim the same level 0
> province (in which case they're arguing over empty land) and the first
> to rule it up would get control of the resultant level 0 province
> (which they don't need to invest since it was a province they created).

Or you could have it invested to you by a 0-level temple in that land. The
Rjuric often choose to keep their lands pristine, but they still want it
to be their's, to have control over it.

It is my personal belief that a investiture ceremony to invest an entire
realm is certainly very possible, but it requires certain components: it
must be done in the designated capital of the domain, must be done by the
designated religion of the domain (if there is one), it requires a handful
of soil from each of the provinces to be invested, and is automatically
successful if each of the other regents who have holdings in the realm is
present.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[David Sean Brown]

>
> > > Since I don't think you need to be in the Province affected, it is not
> > > necessary to have a friendly temple there. A friendly temple in already
> > > friendly lands should be sufficient. As a final argument, try doing it
> > > your way, and figure out how to invest a 0/7 Province, hehe.
>
> Easy: 0 level temple holdings. There are plenty of these, esp. in Rjuric
> land, where the tribes that use the land are sparce enough and there
> seldom enough to leave the land in a virtually pristane state, although
> the stone circles of Erik's churchs can still be found there.

Unfortnately for the lowly *grin* preiest, temples do not have ley
connections, so you cannot use the level of one in another province.
level 0 temples can't power any realm spells, as the minimum requirement
for a realm spell is level 1

Sean

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, David Sean Brown wrote:

> Unfortnately for the lowly *grin* preiest, temples do not have ley
> connections, so you cannot use the level of one in another province.
> level 0 temples can't power any realm spells, as the minimum requirement
> for a realm spell is level 1
>
Ah, well, that's not the point, is it. The point is: does there exist a
connection to the land in the province that allows the regent to invest
the province from another province, preferably the domain capital. If the
ceremony is done by a priest who owns a level-0 temple in the province,
the connection is made.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[David Sean Brown]

> On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, David Sean Brown wrote:
>
> > Unfortnately for the lowly *grin* preiest, temples do not have ley
> > connections, so you cannot use the level of one in another province.
> > level 0 temples can't power any realm spells, as the minimum requirement
> > for a realm spell is level 1
> >
> Ah, well, that's not the point, is it. The point is: does there exist a
> connection to the land in the province that allows the regent to invest
> the province from another province, preferably the domain capital. If the
> ceremony is done by a priest who owns a level-0 temple in the province,
> the connection is made.

Well, actually it is the point (at least I thought). For a priest to
perform the investiture ceremony, the Invertiture eralm spell is used.
This requires a level 1 Temple. I realize investiture can also be done as
a domain action (I consider these separate entities, for just this
reason), and in this case a priest can invest him/her self with the
province. I had thought, however, that the challence was to figure out
how to perform teh ceremony, and hence the spell in a level 0 province.

Sean

[Brian Stoner]

David Sean Brown wrote:

> Well, actually it is the point (at least I thought). For a priest to
> perform the investiture ceremony, the Invertiture eralm spell is used.
>
> This requires a level 1 Temple. I realize investiture can also be
> done as
> a domain action (I consider these separate entities, for just this
> reason), and in this case a priest can invest him/her self with the
> province. I had thought, however, that the challence was to figure
> out
> how to perform teh ceremony, and hence the spell in a level 0
> province.
>
> Sean

More or less, yes, that is what my original question regarded. I
have not looked at the spell and the domain action as separate. As I
have seen it, the spell was cast as a part of the ceremony...
Essentially, my point was whether an investiture of a provence from one
ruler to another could be done in a provence where the required priest
had less than a level 1 temple, perhaps no temple at all. I understand
the need for the ceremony to be carried out in the provence (or
capital), as it is an exchange of the mystical connection with the
land. So, I want to know what the creators of our favorite setting
think. Well, Ed, am I missing something here, or does my problem make
sense?

Brian

P.S. I don't want to hear from everyone that it's my campaign and I can
do what I want...I already know that and I will. I just want to see
what everyone else thinks before I make a decision...