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  1. #1
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "bulletmagnet" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 6:59 PM

    Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] How have the Humans won against the elves?

    [2#2414]





    > The fact that a defeated human army can heal up and return

    > in a few days spells victory.



    This does create interesting changes in how wars are fought. The key ratio

    is the number of soldiers to the number of priests, so when PC priests

    accompany a single company, their ability to fundamentally alter the balance

    of power is huge. Battle oriented priests, who have taken Reach Spell,

    might toss off five or six cure lights plus more potent healing. If they

    are anything like my players, they get around this limit by creating huge

    numbers of healing "potions". [I refer to any spell storage device that

    works like a potion in that anyone can use it, it is limited to spell levels

    1-3, and uses the cost tables of potions.] Magical healing is even more

    profound when you get away from brittle low level characters. A unit of 60

    huskarlar (60 @ 3rd level, 2 @ 6th level, 1 8th level captain or jarl in

    command) relies more on strategic healing to prevent combatants from

    dropping, meaning that one high level priest can fundamentally alter the

    odds in combat.



    Given this situation, it would almost become standard to include healers in

    units: don`t leave camp with it. One might assume that my huskarlar instead

    has 50 3rd level warriors, 2 6th level fighters, 1 8th level fighter, 2 2nd

    level priests, and 1 5th level priest. Such a unit could effectively ignore

    its first hit result. The loss of combat power from exchanging 3 warriors

    for the three priests doesn`t really weaken the unit`s combat power. The

    sacrfice of 3 incriments of BAB and 9 hps is more than offset by all that

    healing magic. Keep in mind we are changing warriors for priests, so the

    calculus is different than if we changed fighters for priests, since we

    would be lossing two combat feats as well.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  2. #2
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    there is no doubt that a high level priest can alter a combat between military units. but in my view of birthright high level NPCs are an exception and not normal. there would not exist such an elite unit like the huskarlas (maybe one or two slightly comparable ones). likewise accompaning priests would be 1. level and may have maximal 3 healing spells (2e-Wisdom).
    Despite that the political system of Birthright makes it difficult to compose such mixed units, because behind every priests stands a church. A ruler would have to ally himself with one church. and maybe its is political unwise to take side for that church who has holdings in more than one realm. or it is unwise for a ruler who has more than one church in his realm.
    This would reduce mixed units to a few, most would be of theocracies like Medoere and Talinie.
    =&#092;AA/=

  3. #3
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by AngriestAngel@Apr 4 2004, 06:22 AM
    there is no doubt that a high level priest can alter a combat between military units. but in my view of birthright high level NPCs are an exception and not normal. there would not exist such an elite unit like the huskarlas (maybe one or two slightly comparable ones). likewise accompaning priests would be 1. level and may have maximal 3 healing spells (2e-Wisdom).
    Despite that the political system of Birthright makes it difficult to compose such mixed units, because behind every priests stands a church. A ruler would have to ally himself with one church. and maybe its is political unwise to take side for that church who has holdings in more than one realm. or it is unwise for a ruler who has more than one church in his realm.
    This would reduce mixed units to a few, most would be of theocracies like Medoere and Talinie.
    Or most anywhere in the Rjurik Highlands or Vosgaard.
    Duane Eggert

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    Yes, of course, Vosgaard would be THE place. but i doubt that priests of Erik would join a combat. only under special circumstances, like most other churches with exception of Cuiraecen and Belinik. an example for the urgency that would accour of such a special circumstance i mean would be the gorgon starting a rampage.
    =&#092;AA/=

  5. #5
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 8:21 AM





    > Or most anywhere in the Rjurik Highlands or Vosgaard.



    You`re joking, right? The priests of battle and war don`t actually go to

    war and fight in battles?



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  6. #6
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "AngriestAngel" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 6:22 AM



    > there is no doubt that a high level priest can alter a combat between

    > military units. but in my view of birthright high level NPCs are an

    > exception and not normal.



    The listed priest was 5th level and had two 2nd level buddies. Even when I

    was playing 2e and subscribed to the low level theme, I wouldn`t have

    regarded 5th level as "high" beyond what would be proper for a normal unit.



    I will digress on level for a moment. In old school D&D one adventured

    until name level, then if you built it, they would come, the leek and

    retainers that is. BR presumed that a character could start as the ruler of

    a realm much larger than a mere fief. Many players appreciated a setting

    where you didn`t have to be high level to be important. BR is, in fact, a

    low level setting, so much as it is a setting where level is not

    commensurate with combat power. Never the less, in 3e, and late 2e if you

    look at supplements like Sages and Specialists, level didn`t translate

    directly into combat power, but could reflect other kinds of abilities.

    Further, BR is a setting in which 98% of all people get a 10% bonus to xp in

    2e. With all the war and opportunities for experience of one kind or

    another, what mechanism keeps people from getting levels?



    > there would not exist such an elite unit like the huskarlas (maybe

    > one or two slightly comparable ones).



    Of course they are an elite unit, I wanted to reduce the number of members

    in the unit, that`s part of the point of the original post. Its not as

    elite as a unit of knights, but they aren`t run of the mill yeoman either.

    Certainly every realm can raise a unit of "guards" based on the permenant

    establishment of warriors who surround the ruler. Or, do you mean one or two

    per realm?



    > likewise accompaning priests would be 1. level and may have

    > maximal 3 healing spells (2e-Wisdom).



    Based on what?



    > Despite that the political system of Birthright makes it difficult

    > to compose such mixed units, because behind every priests

    > stands a church.



    Every political organiztion has both an internal and an external politics.

    You can find priests in a temple realm that is neutral towards its land lord

    that will run the gamut from friendly to hostile to the lord. Those who are

    friendly will aid it.



    > A ruler would have to ally himself with one church. and maybe its

    > is political unwise to take side for that church who has holdings in

    > more than one realm.



    Everyone is obligated to render their service. The lord who has lands in

    both warring territories must fulfil obligations to both of his lords, or be

    recalcitrant to one, and risk forfit of his lands. A temple has the same

    obligations, although the peolpe who are expected to support the temple are

    probabaly better understood as the party owed an obligation. Consider the

    soldiers in question. If a temple refused them healing, they would be

    regarded as having breached their duty, and the temple would lose support.

    A temple of Haelyn or Cuiraecen which did so would be losing support from a

    core constituancy. In terms of BR realm rules, any temple that refused such

    support would be subject to a minor or major loss of regency (p. 48)

    depending on the nature of the temple and the prior relations with the

    landed realm.



    > or it is unwise for a ruler who has more than one church in his realm.

    > This would reduce mixed units to a few, most would be of

    > theocracies like Medoere and Talinie.



    Every realm is a mixed realm, every jurisdiction is overlapping, every lord

    temporal or secular has both temporal and secular vassals and obligations.

    The same could be extended to guilds as well. Cerilia is not composed of

    nation-states with national religions, national economies, and national

    allegences. Like a medieval world, relations will have obligations to rival

    factions, comrades in one campaign will be combatants in a subsiquent one,

    temples and guilds will exist in multiple realms. Such medieval

    organizations were expected to fulfil their obligations irrespective of the

    fact that they might be fulfiling obligations elsewhere. From a societal

    point, why have temples of they don`t perform their temple function? In a

    world with multiple temple organizations, you will shop around to find

    someone who will perform the desired function. The realm who tries, like

    William Jennings Bryan, to be neutral by helping no one will find he has

    made two enemies. The far more common thing will be for guilds to sell

    material to both sides, for temples to heal and minister to both sides.

    Normally, guilds and temples will be expected to be even-handed, unless they

    are known by prior declaration to have a greater allegience to one side, and

    even then they are still obligated to perform normal service to the other

    side.



    Consider a war between Ghoere and Mhoried. Both Haelyn`s Aegis and the

    Militant Order of Cuiraécen are in both realms. In order to maintain their

    possition in both realms, each temple must perform customary service.

    Certainly soldiers who worship in HA are fighting soldiers who worship in

    HA, and likewise with the MOC. Some characters who have levels as priests

    will have permenent service with one state or the other. The diplomatic

    services of both realms no doubt have priests of Cuiraécen, and the commands

    in the field and law courts at home and with the army will have priests of

    Haelyn. One function that this kind of arrangement has is that it mitigates

    excess violence on the part of both sides. In the same way that medievals

    found it easier to commit attrocities against people of totally rival

    faiths, they found it harder to do so for co-religionists.



    As a matter of fact, I think that in both Mhoried and Ghoere, major parts of

    the armies are actually supplied by the temples of Haelyn and Cuiraécen.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  7. #7
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by kgauck@Apr 4 2004, 09:20 AM
    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 8:21 AM





    > Or most anywhere in the Rjurik Highlands or Vosgaard.



    You`re joking, right? The priests of battle and war don`t actually go to

    war and fight in battles?



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

    I was referring to the Rjurik and Vos not having the wide distinction between different churches that say Haelyn&#39;s do. Hence in the Rjurik highlands priests of the two different temples are more apt to work together to defend their people.

    In Vosgaard, Kreisha and Belnik work together and so working together in a single unit wouldn&#39;t be uncommon either.
    Duane Eggert

  8. #8
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 12:34 PM





    > I was referring to the Rjurik and Vos not having the wide distinction

    between different churches that say Haelyn`s do. Hence in the Rjurik

    highlands priests of the two different temples are more apt to work together

    to defend their people.



    That`s fine, but the main thrust of the post was that a realm with the same

    temple as an enemy realm would not get assistance by a temple that tries to

    stay neutral. Certainly for this very reason Rjurk priests would be even

    more reluctant to take up arms against fellow druids of the same temple. I

    think you were riffing off the last line (about theocracies) and not the

    other eight sentences which only support the notion that priests would aid

    when fighting outsiders.



    The original post focused on the cooperation of priests with the army, not

    temples with each other.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  9. #9
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "AngriestAngel" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 8:47 AM





    > Yes, of course, Vosgaard would be THE place. but i doubt

    > that priests of Erik would join a combat. only under special

    > circumstances, like most other churches with exception of

    > Cuiraecen and Belinik. an example for the urgency that would

    > accour of such a special circumstance i mean would be the

    > gorgon starting a rampage.



    There is a warcard for druids. Its the only group of priests (so

    identified) to get a warcard. I hardly think they are battle-shy.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  10. #10
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by kgauck@Apr 4 2004, 06:20 PM
    That`s fine, but the main thrust of the post was that a realm with the same

    temple as an enemy realm would not get assistance by a temple that tries to

    stay neutral. Certainly for this very reason Rjurk priests would be even

    more reluctant to take up arms against fellow druids of the same temple. I

    think you were riffing off the last line (about theocracies) and not the

    other eight sentences which only support the notion that priests would aid

    when fighting outsiders.



    The original post focused on the cooperation of priests with the army, not

    temples with each other.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

    True but the post I had quoted and was responding to was refering to ruler with multiple temples within his realm and getting the backing of one to support his army. Hence a mixture of different priests within a military unit.

    Hence it was appropriate in this case.
    Duane Eggert

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