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  1. #21
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 05:06 AM 4/6/2004 +0200, graham anderson wrote:



    > I agree with falcon the books hint that with the exception of the

    > dwarves that the other humanoids had no gods before daesmar. They may not

    > even have had any idea what a god is. The elves are athiests and the

    > other races with the exception of the dwarves were thier slaves. This is

    > a good expenation as for why they would have no gods before daesmar.



    I don`t know... it seems odd to me that Deismaar would have "brought" a

    pantheon of gods to goblins, Yeenoghu to gnolls, Baphomet to minotaurs, and

    Torazan to the orogs who worship to them. Aside from any issues with the

    history of the setting, I`m content with the argument that the divine

    magics of humans isn`t really the cause of elven decline. I kind of like

    the idea that the argument is a mistaken rationalization rather than a

    statement of fact. Making the gods of other races (and the divine magics

    gained by their followers) a post-Deismaar thing somewhat vitiates the

    value of that rationalization for role-playing purposes.



    Gary

  2. #22
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Apr 5 2004, 05:17 PM
    Allow me to say that I do not remember of such a part in the Complete Book of Elves, and that I have my own quotes from the book to answer to what you mentioned:. . . .
    I stand corrected. That's what I get for attempting to rely on my feeble memory instead of looking it up.

    I do, however, like the Dragon article take better, it helps explain a lot of things in regards to elven way of life.
    Duane Eggert

  3. #23
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    I don't see it as odd that daesmar would bring a pantheon of gods for the humanoids. The battle/war didn't happen over night azrai spent meny years building up his followers among the humanoids. These humanoids worshiped him as a god and there is no reason that gods did not arise after azrai's death like the human gods. Add to this the fact that gods can be born to other gods as per laerme and you have a pantheon quite easily. Also certain powerfull beings are worshiped as gods by the goblins and other humanoid groups like the spider, worlock etc.

    There are lots of reasons that the elves were defeated but they still hold a lot of land. One was the back biting among the elves as when tuarviel didn't support the monolith builder elves and they were destroyed. Another the elven loses at daesmar were cripiling. Humans could recover in a couple of generations elves can't . The elves are only now thousands of years later just recovering from daesmar. Remember the humans just kept coming from abroad. Veterns of fighting azrai were constantly reinforcing the humans. As mentioned in the rjurik highlands divine magic was just the straw that broak the camals back.
    MORNINGSTAR

  4. #24
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    Originally posted by geeman+Apr 6 2004, 11:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (geeman &#064; Apr 6 2004, 11:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I don`t know... it seems odd to me that Deismaar would have "brought" a

    pantheon of gods to goblins, Yeenoghu to gnolls, Baphomet to minotaurs, and

    Torazan to the orogs who worship to them.[/b]

    Who says Deismaar brought a pantheon of gods to the goblins, or to the dwarves or orogs for that matter? No human seems to know any of the goblin, dwarven or orogs deities besides Kartathok, Moradin and Torazan, respectively, nor do any Br sourcebooks make mention of them anymore. Maybe that&#39;s for a good reason: there are none. In my view, each of those races has only one deity. (Some invidividual members of these races might worship other, more "human", gods, though, but that&#39;s beside the point.)

    <!--QuoteBegin-geeman
    @Apr 6 2004, 11:00 AM
    Making the gods of other races (and the divine magics

    gained by their followers) a post-Deismaar thing somewhat vitiates the

    value of that rationalization for role-playing purposes.
    [/quote]
    What I&#39;ve come up with stands alone from the whole elven survival debate, really. It doesn&#39;t have anything directly to do with it per se. It&#39;s an idea that I&#39;ve had for a while already.
    <span style='color:darkgray'>&quot;I like to be passionate and sincere, but I also like to have fun and act like a dork... Geeks unite.&quot;
    &#160;</span>&#160;<span style='color:brightgray'>&#160;&#160;—Kurt Cobain</span>

  5. #25
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    Who says Deismaar brought a pantheon of gods to the goblins, or to the dwarves or orogs for that matter? No human seems to know any of the goblin, dwarven or orogs deities besides Kartathok, Moradin and Torazan, respectively, nor do any Br sourcebooks make mention of them anymore. Maybe that&#39;s for a good reason: there are none. In my view, each of those races has only one deity. (Some invidividual members of these races might worship other, more "human", gods, though, but that&#39;s beside the point.)
    tribes of the heartless waste mentions three other goblin gods, it could be seen that the dwarven gods are the original 9 children created by moradin although it does not mention that they are worshiped exactly i think you can assume that they are. Other than that in worlock of the stone crows a number of other deities are worshiped in the temple of the goblins including the kraken.
    MORNINGSTAR

  6. #26
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 10:27 PM 4/6/2004 +0200, the Falcon wrote:



    >
    Originally posted by geeman@Apr 6 2004, 11:00 AM
    [b]I don`t know... it

    > seems odd to me that Deismaar would have "brought" a<>

    > pantheon of gods to goblins, Yeenoghu to gnolls, Baphomet to minotaurs,

    > and<>

    > Torazan to the orogs who worship to them.
    > Who says Deismaar brought a pantheon of gods to the goblins, or

    > to the dwarves or orogs for that matter?



    Well, "brought" in quotes there... as in, the battle of Deismaar somehow

    introduced or otherwise initiated the worship of gods for other the other

    Cerilian races. It doesn`t add up IMO that that event had something to do

    with the religions of other races, or the participation of whole pantheons

    of gods in the earthly plane of Aebrynis.



    >No human seems to know any of the goblin, dwarven or orogs deities besides

    >Kartathok, Moradin and Torazan, respectively, nor do any Br sourcebooks

    >make mention of them anymore. Maybe that`s for a good reason: there are

    >none. In my view, each of those races has only one deity.



    Just because WE don`t know anything of the gods of those races doesn`t mean

    that no human does. It`s just one of the things left open ended in the

    original materials. Cerilian humans probably know more about them than we

    do. It`s probably not common knowledge, or things that most humans would

    find a particular interested in for various reasons--the goblin religion is

    rather noxious, for example--but it`s not forbidden or obscure.



    Even with what little information we do have, however, the sourcebooks do

    mention that both the goblins and the dwarves have a whole pantheons in

    addition to their respective primary patrons, plus there is a slurry of

    "gods" that were in 2e among the more powerful tanar`ri, which is a broad

    group of creatures in an ever shifting, abyssal polity. That`s at least

    three "pantheons" (and who knows what other gods might exist amongst for

    those who live in the SW) so there are a lot of divine/infernal beings that

    exist in the overall BR theology. On the whole, that seems like a lot of

    material to backlog the idea of divine magics existing on Cerilia among

    various races before humans arrived on the continent.



    Gary

  7. #27
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    Originally posted by geeman@Apr 7 2004, 10:10 AM
    On the whole, that seems like a lot of

    material to backlog the idea of divine magics existing on Cerilia among

    various races before humans arrived on the continent.
    I just don&#39;t like the idea, though. Besides, it saves me the trouble of having to come up with a whole dwarven pantheon, let alone a whole goblin pantheon. I&#39;m just not interested in that. Besides, I think it&#39;s so typical (might I say "FR"ish?) for each race to have their own complete pantheon. I liked the way they handled it in the 3e PH, which is, each race only has one race specific deity, basically, with them worshipping other deities that are not race specific as needed. I like to keep my pantheons small and manageable, that&#39;s all. It&#39;s one of the things that appealed to me about Br. I&#39;m not about to change it.
    <span style='color:darkgray'>&quot;I like to be passionate and sincere, but I also like to have fun and act like a dork... Geeks unite.&quot;
    &#160;</span>&#160;<span style='color:brightgray'>&#160;&#160;—Kurt Cobain</span>

  8. #28
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    Greetings. I&#39;m a long time lurker and finally decided to post.

    I&#39;ve given this topic some thought and came up with a theory as to why the elves lost to the humans. In the Book of Magecraft it states: "The elves learned early how to harness mebhaighl and use it as one of the land&#39;s energy souces." Perhaps the reason why the elves lost was because the source levels were lowered due to human expansion, thus decreasing the level of magical power available to the elves. They found themselves at a disadvantage against priestly magic, which doesn&#39;t rely on mebhaighl. As everyone here knows, the higher the level of civilization in a province, the lower the source level.

    For instance, the source level in elven lands is generally very high, so elves could cast higher level spells. However, in provinces such as Anuire where the source level is 0, an elven mage would be virtually powerless.

    This theory breaks down a bit with the events at Mt. Diesmaar. After the gods perished, humans could now cast true magic if they were blooded. Obviously, human wizards can cast fairly powerful spells even when the source level is low. It&#39;s possible that the divine essences in blooded humans are the true source of their magical power and don&#39;t have to draw upon mebhaighl as greatly as an elf.

    Of course, this is all just wild theory of mine.

  9. #29
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 09:56 PM 4/7/2004 +0200, the Falcon wrote:



    >Besides, I think it`s so typical (might I say "FR"ish?) for each

    >race to have their own complete pantheon. I liked the way they handled it

    >in the 3e PH, which is, each race only has one race specific deity,

    >basically, with them worshipping other deities that are not race specific

    >as needed. I like to keep my pantheons small and manageable, that`s all.

    >It`s one of the things that appealed to me about Br. I`m not about to

    >change it.



    Personally, I`ve always preferred the interpretation that the gods of

    various pantheons are simply different aspects of the same

    individuals. Thor = Lei Kung = Cuirecaen. Omikami = Avani. Anu = Haelyn

    = Zeus = Indra = Ra. There are lots of commonalities to the pantheons in

    various real life and fantasy materials. Enough to equate certain

    individual deities, and in those cases where the god in question is not the

    leader of a particular pantheon BR gives us an excellent example of how

    different cultures find primacy in different gods.



    However, when it comes to the demi-human races its a little more difficult

    to equate the human gods. Moradin does seem pretty definitively dwarven,

    as do some of the other deities. That`s not to say that such a thing is

    beyond the concept of godhood, of course, but it just gets a little

    nonsensical to try to equate Haelyn with Moradin when their portfolios have

    a few fundamental differences--air vs. earth being probably the most obvious.



    It`s also a bit of a problem in BR in that several of the gods died and

    were replaces, so equating them with deities from other pantheons means

    those gods have been supplanted. Very few characters in the BR universe

    are going to be very concerned by the fact that the original Zeus is now

    Haelyn, but it does make for a rather extensive effect that some folks

    might balk at.



    Gary

  10. #30
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>

    Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 6:40 PM





    > There are lots of commonalities to the pantheons in

    > various real life and fantasy materials. Enough to

    > equate certain individual deities ...

    > Very few characters in the BR universe are going to

    > be very concerned by the fact that the original Zeus

    > is now Haelyn, but it does make for a rather extensive

    > effect that some folks might balk at.



    Even this replacement is mirrored is Saturn`s replacement

    of Uranus, and Saturn`s replacement by Jupiter.

    (or Uranos, Kronos, and Zeus)



    In the new years celebration of Cerilia, the baby new year

    is Haelyn and the old father time is Andurias.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

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