How have the Humans won against the elves?

[Michael Romes]

Originally posted by AngriestAngel@Apr 3 2004, 09:53 PM
I agree that religion seems not to be that important in goblin life- the only big-bos goblin priest i remember is that guy of Khurin-Azur, intriguing behind the Great Khanate. I would definitivley say that the one Gnoll Chieftain in vosgaard, which united several tribes, is a shaman. But I consider goblins to have priests- as you say, the goblinoids churches arent that strong as human ones- but priests.

Khurin-Azur - a goblin Khanate? ;-)

It is actually the dwarven realm north of the Gorgon.
Perhaps Kal-Kalathor was what you meant?
bye
Michael

[AngriestAngel]

@Raesene: I have read "Greatheart" and ever thought it were just gnoll priests. But your interpretation of the lightnings would explain why the Elves didnt stand a chance- really devastating if a god throws lightnings- as much as he wants- from the sky! Like the god Zeus. I imagine the pre-Deismaar gods beeing like the old greek gods of mythology, who loved to play with human fates.
@Bulletmagnet: healing spells are a great thing after battle, but i value a fireball, thrown in lines of thight standing men more. because you cannot heal somebody who is burned to ashes. if we compare wizard and priest spells in general it is obvious to me that in matters of fight the wizard is the more cunning one. I think priest spells mainly enable another task, a social one- to protect people and take action in political things, anyway this is the way i played them (and i loved it:-)).

[AngriestAngel]

erh, yes Michael- i meant Kal-Kalathor. That "K" and that "-" between two words- its so similar :wacko:

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by geeman@Apr 3 2004, 02:50 AM
Other Cerilian races (goblins, dwarves, even gnolls and giants) had divine magics long before humans showed up. If divine magics were such an influence then it would have been an influence before.

Did they really? I haven't read any of the Br novels, so maybe there's info out there to the contrary, but I think it's conceivable that none of the Cerilian races had any gods before Deismaar. I've always thought of humans introducing deities to Cerilia. That also explains what all those other Cerilian deities were doing during Deismaar: they weren't there yet. In my campaign, the giants still don't have any deities, which makes sense to me, as they've existed for even longer than the elves (at least, according to "Bloodspawn"). I don't think it's that unlikely that Kartathok was just a major, but still mortal, goblin follower of Azrai at the Battle of Deismaar. Before Deismaar, the goblins were much like the elves. Remember, Azrai was so powerful, it took five other deities to destroy him. It is not that inconceivable that he could have spawned a few other, lesser deities that most are not that aware of. One the reasons why the elves didn't get any deities is that they never worshipped or followed Azrai that much in the first place, a symptom of which was the fact that most of them changed sides at Deismaar. In my view, even Rhuobhe never really liked Azrai that much, but he saw him as the lesser of two evils. The elves followed Azrai more out of hatred and fear of the humans, out of necessity, than anything else. That's the way I see it, anyway. The reason that most humans don't know about this is because they're so humanocentric. The reason that most elves don't know about it, is because they couldn't care less; they want nothing to do anymore with deities ever since Deismaar.
Perhaps the only Cerilian race that had a deity before Deismaar could be the dwarves. It would make more sense, because they've never really been involved with Deismaar, so their deity couldn't have come from there. Halflings also fit right in with my theory: they still don't have their own deity, they worship Avani. (If they had any, where did they go?) I think it all makes sense, doesn't it?

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Apr 3 2004, 08:15 PM

In any case, allow me to tell you that the standard elven gestation (for the typical core rule elf which generally lived up to [a maximum of] 525 to 925 years) lasted 2 years! Hmm...

Actually in 2nd ed, the Complete Book of Elves, made it a specific point to have all of the demi-human races have gestational periiods of roughly the same amount of time (somewhere around 9 months) in order to 'avoid' this issue.

For 3rd ed check Dragon #279 which had a write up on elves. Basically the reason that there are not more of them is that they only become fertile at set times - hence they can enjoy their typical sexual freedom and yet not have high birth rates.

[geeman]

At 03:18 PM 4/4/2004 +0200, the Falcon wrote:



>

Originally posted by geeman@Apr 3 2004, 02:50 AM
[b]Other Cerilian races

> (goblins, dwarves, even gnolls and giants) had divine magics long before

> humans showed up. If divine magics were such an influence then it

> would have been an influence before.

> Did they really? I haven`t read any of the Br novels, so maybe there`s

> info out there to the contrary, but I think it`s conceivable that none of

> the Cerilian races had any gods before Deismaar. I`ve always thought of

> humans introducing deities to Cerilia.



Given that goblins, dwarves and orogs have their own gods and even

pantheons it seems likely to me that those races had divine magics before

Deismaar. Unless, that is, Deismaar brought gods to Cerilia, which seems a

bit odd to me.



Gary

[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by geeman@Apr 5 2004, 07:30 AM
At 03:18 PM 4/4/2004 +0200, the Falcon wrote:
Given that goblins, dwarves and orogs have their own gods and even pantheons it seems likely to me that those races had divine magics before Deismaar. Unless, that is, Deismaar brought gods to Cerilia, which seems a bit odd to me.

I would agree, I think the goblin, orog, dwarven, etc, gods were already present and had worshippers in Cerilia before the humans arrived. However, there are good reason why all of those races never troubled the elves.

The dwarven were content to remain in their underground cities, and generally didn't bother the elves. The Orogs were in much the same situation, and it has only been in in the past few hundred years that they have emerged into the surface world and started forging new kingdoms.

The Goblins were the only race that might have troubled the elves, but for a long period of time the goblins were enslaved by the elves and didn't have the strength or organisation to challenge the elves, divine magic or not. I imagine that the elves may have also tried to stop the worship of the goblin gods, and only a few hidden shrines may have centres of goblin worship. And remember the goblin did gain their independance from elven rule before the humans arrived, perhaps through the efforts of their priests. The fact that several goblins realms occupy land that was once forest, or still is forest, is perhaps telling.

Humans on the other hand are much more organised and consequentially their religion is also more organised (look at Haelyn's faith for example with the order of knights, etc).

[blitzmacher]

I agree with Raesene's post, but would add the fact that goblins may have more numbers then other races, they also tend to fight each other almost as much as everyone else. Although arcane magic has more destructive power then divine, elves are more careful in their use of it. They won't use a fireball if it would destroy even a small part of their forest, no matter how many humans or goblins it would destroy along with it.

[RaspK_FOG]

Originally posted by irdeggman+Apr 4 2004, 04:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (irdeggman &#064; Apr 4 2004, 04:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RaspK_FOG@Apr 3 2004, 08:15 PM

In any case, allow me to tell you that the standard elven gestation (for the typical core rule elf which generally lived up to [a maximum of] 525 to 925 years) lasted 2 years&#33;* * Hmm...

Actually in 2nd ed, the Complete Book of Elves, made it a specific point to have all of the demi-human races have gestational periiods of roughly the same amount of time (somewhere around 9 months) in order to &#39;avoid&#39; this issue.

For 3rd ed check Dragon #279 which had a write up on elves. Basically the reason that there are not more of them is that they only become fertile at set times - hence they can enjoy their typical sexual freedom and yet not have high birth rates. [/b][/quote]
Allow me to say that I do not remember of such a part in the Complete Book of Elves, and that I have my own quotes from the book to answer to what you mentioned:

After the Godswar, Corellon Larethian walked the world of mortal Elves, hoping to gain knowledge and experience of our lives so that he could give us the aid that a true god should. During his journeys, he came across an Elf woman of such beauty and generosity of soul that he was stricken with love. Elana returned that love. Two years later, a child was born: Eliara Larethian. Corellon&#39;s daughter was the most perfect Elf ever born. Men and Elves alike hoped to win her favor.

and:

Celebration of Birth

Since elf children are few (or at least far fewer than human children), the birth of an elf is a cause of great celebration. Births are always times of great joy. The village turns out in profusion, setting aside the day&#39;s work to celebrate with the infant&#39;s parents.
* Following a two-year pregnancy, elf women are glad to celebrate the lightening of their burden. They happily join in the festivities honoring their newborn. Such celebrations typically last several days and conclude with the naming of the infant. Children are given a private name by their parents and then given a public name. The secret name is known only to the elf, his or her parents, and the priest presiding over the ceremony. While knowing the name gives no power over an elf, it is a sign of love and respect when an elf reveals his or her true name.

[graham anderson]

I agree with falcon the books hint that with the exception of the dwarves that the other humanoids had no gods before daesmar. They may not even have had any idea what a god is. The elves are athiests and the other races with the exception of the dwarves were thier slaves. This is a good expenation as for why they would have no gods before daesmar.