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Thread: Crusades

  1. #1
    Hibbs, Philip
    Guest

    Crusades

    >Crusades and jihads have historically been politically motivated.

    Just because that turns out to be what happened in history, that doesn't
    mean that it has to be that way in a fantasy world. Ninja powers may
    have turned out to be training, preparation and trickery, but in a
    fantasy game, I'd make them magical powers, just as crusades and jihads
    would be primarily religious. Remember, gods are evident through overt
    magic, not just faith.


    philip.hibbs@tnt.co.uk or phibbs@compuserve.com
    http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/phibbs

  2. #2
    FRANKEN*RC
    Guest

    Crusades

    > >Crusades and jihads have historically been politically motivated.

    In the Dark ages religion and politics were the same. Don't forget
    that the church was one of the (maybe THE) most powerful
    factions in the world.

    > Just because that turns out to be what happened in history, that doesn't
    > mean that it has to be that way in a fantasy world. Ninja powers may
    > have turned out to be training, preparation and trickery, but in a
    > fantasy game, I'd make them magical powers, just as crusades and jihads
    > would be primarily religious. Remember, gods are evident through overt
    > magic, not just faith.
    >

  3. #3
    Daniel McSorley
    Guest

    Crusades

    From: Trizt


    >While the "holy" land was under muslim control it was more open then it
    ever
    >was during the xian control. The xians did slauther most of the population
    in
    >Jerusalem and it was mostly xians juws (spl?) living there. Somehow most of
    >the people who died during the crusides where civilians and usually xians
    as
    >the xian Knights classed everyone east of Konstantinopel as none xians. I
    have
    >to say that ALL crusades has been quite evil, exept the first one was a
    bunch
    >miss informed xian zeliots. The first "knights" who moved south to save the
    >"holy" land did start kill people in mid europe and a bit later a number of
    >crusades was made within europe which can't have been so friendly as the
    Finns
    >did burn down Sigtuna, which was the xian swedens capital. Oki, I got a bit
    >away from the real subject here... But what I did want to say, that it's
    quite
    >crasy to say that only LG could call to a "crusade", as I see only evil and
    >expanding religions would do that (both evil and expanding is a good
    >description of mideivel xianity, and still is. Only the ortodox view of
    >xianity is less expansive and evil).


    What, exactly, is an "xian"? Is there something you want to say?

    Daniel McSorley
    mcsorley.1@osu.edu

  4. #4
    James Ruhland
    Guest

    Crusades

    >
    > While the "holy" land was under muslim control it was more open then it
    ever
    > was during the xian control. The xians did slauther most of the
    population in
    > Jerusalem and it was mostly xians juws (spl?) living there. Somehow most
    of
    > the people who died during the crusides where civilians and usually xians
    as
    > the xian Knights classed everyone east of Konstantinopel as none xians.

    And they weren't to keen on the Romans of Constantinople, either...

    I have
    > to say that ALL crusades has been quite evil, exept the first one was a
    bunch
    > miss informed xian zeliots.

    I'm not sure who these "xians" you speak of are; but I wasn't saying that
    the Crusaders were good. The whole Crusade thing, IMO, was just a bad
    mistake by Alexius and that western prelate who called for it. Fact is
    Turkish agressions made it nessisary for us to call for mercenary aid, and
    the whole thing got out of control. Typical when dealing with Frankish
    Barbarians. But, again, I will repeat that a crusade in a heroic fantasy
    setting need not duplicate the vile, villanous, and ignorant nature of the
    historical crusaders. Or, if you want it more close to realistic, then any
    Crusade called would be in response to forgeign, "infidel" (I.E. they don't
    follow the same diety as you, or not in the same way) agression against a
    friendly power of the similar (or friendly) religion (I.E. the Turkish
    agressions against the E. Roman Empire, or dude's example of coming to the
    aid of Ariya if it is overun by hostile barbarians).

    > But what I did want to say, that it's quite
    > crasy to say that only LG could call to a "crusade", as I see only evil
    and
    > expanding religions would do that (both evil and expanding is a good
    > description of mideivel xianity, and still is. Only the ortodox view of
    > xianity is less expansive and evil).
    >
    Leaving asside real-world religions for a second, in order to try to avoid
    insulting anyone's real-world beliefs anymore than T. and I already have, I
    think that alignment shouldn't matter; any nation or civilization that has
    strongly held religious beliefs should be able to call a crusade or jihad.
    Btw, Anatolia still hasn't recovered from the devistation wrought by thouse
    nomadic barbarians, the Seljuk, so I'll set asside who did more to what for
    a moment. But one thing about wars, from midieval to modern times; usually
    in all cases it is the civilian populace that suffers most, whether the
    army marches in the name of god, or some athiest tyrant (i.e. Hitler), just
    like most soldiers who have been killed during war died not on the
    battlefield, but due to disease, unsanitary conditions, accidents, etc.

  5. #5
    Neil Barnes
    Guest

    Crusades

    On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, James Ruhland wrote:
    > Fact is
    > Turkish agressions made it nessisary for us to call for mercenary aid, and
    > the whole thing got out of control. Typical when dealing with Frankish
    > Barbarians.

    I think you've really got to admire the accomplshments of the First
    Crusaders & the Outremer Kingdomers - they may have been pretty stupid &
    unpleasant, but the whole thing was a pretty amazing accomplishment,
    trudging through deserts with that heavy chain mail for example. And the
    history of the Outremer kingdoms is pretty cool reading, with assassins
    and all sorts of doubling dealing and stuff.

    > But one thing about wars, from midieval to modern times; usually
    > in all cases it is the civilian populace that suffers most, whether the
    > army marches in the name of god, or some athiest tyrant (i.e. Hitler), just
    > like most soldiers who have been killed during war died not on the
    > battlefield, but due to disease, unsanitary conditions, accidents, etc.

    cf the 1919 Flu epidemic.

    neil

  6. #6
    David Sean Brown
    Guest

    Crusades

    >
    > What, exactly, is an "xian"? Is there something you want to say?
    "X" is the symbol (greek, I think) for Christ, so an xian is a christian
    (short form, sorta like xmas for christmas)

    Sean

  7. #7
    Mark A Vandermeulen
    Guest

    Crusades

    On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Trizt wrote:

    > -> What, exactly, is an "xian"? Is there something you want to say?
    >
    > It's shortening for Christianity/Christian as X-mas is for Christmas, it's
    > nothing which I have invented but is quite usually used atleast among "new
    > agers".
    >
    >

    It is a relatively common abbreviation for "Christian," based on X
    representing the Greek letter "chi," the first letter in the Greek word
    "christ," meaning "anointed one."

    Mark VanderMeulen
    vander+@pitt.edu

  8. #8
    Joel Parrish
    Guest

    Crusades

    ======== Original Message ========


    On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Trizt wrote:

    > -> What, exactly, is an "xian"? Is there something you want to say?
    >
    > It's shortening for Christianity/Christian as X-mas is for Christmas, it's
    > nothing which I have invented but is quite usually used atleast among "new
    > agers".
    >
    >

    It is a relatively common abbreviation for "Christian," based on X
    representing the Greek letter "chi," the first letter in the Greek word
    "christ," meaning "anointed one."

    Mark VanderMeulen
    vander+@pitt.edu
    'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
    ======== Fwd by: Joel Parrish ========

    No matter what it is or why it is, it is still insulting...

  9. #9
    Mark A Vandermeulen
    Guest

    Crusades

    On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Joel Parrish wrote:

    > It is a relatively common abbreviation for "Christian," based on X
    > representing the Greek letter "chi," the first letter in the Greek word
    > "christ," meaning "anointed one."
    >
    >
    > No matter what it is or why it is, it is still insulting...

    Not necessarily. I am a Christian, and I find nothing wrong with the
    abbreviation. I use it myself quite frequently, esp. when i can get my
    computer to Replace it with the long version when I'm finished writing.

    Mark VanderMeulen
    vander+@pitt.edu

  10. #10
    David Sean Brown
    Guest

    Crusades

    >
    > It is a relatively common abbreviation for "Christian," based on X
    > representing the Greek letter "chi," the first letter in the Greek word
    > "christ," meaning "anointed one."
    >
    > Mark VanderMeulen
    > vander+@pitt.edu
    >
    > No matter what it is or why it is, it is still insulting...

    Why is that..my church has the large X on the ceiling as part of the
    central design. Why would a symbol of Christ be insulting?

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