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  1. #1
    James Ruhland
    Guest

    Wild income in Anuire, how to g

    >
    > On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, James Ruhland wrote:
    > > It shouldn't, nessisarily; but historically, in Mideival times, most of
    the
    > > wealth came from the land (backwards agriculture-based societies), not
    from
    > > trade.
    >
    > Anuire & Brechtur have more renaissence level economies.
    >
    True, but it just reinforces what I said, actually. The Renaisance saw the
    rise of the central ized state (or actually, the return of it) with a
    monetized economy. This let lords raise a lot more taxes, with most of it
    now comming in cash; the fact that these lords had to pass the hat was more
    a function of them using their new income to raise huge armies for massive
    wars, thus spending way to much (deficits start here), going into debt to
    merchants, and eventually defaulting...but, point is they recieved a lot of
    income, more than merchant houses, even.
    >
    >
    > So the landowners impose taxes upon the merchants (Tribute in game
    > terms) and if the merchants disagree they send in the troops to impose
    > martial law - they can knock those guild holdings (on which the trade
    > routes rely) down automatically by occupying their own provinces.
    >
    Again, though, this restricts the nature of the campaign, 'cause what if
    you're playing a character that doesn't want to rely on trade income,
    however indirectly, for his cash?

    > Boy, I guess I am generously liberal. But this is susposed to be a
    heroic game
    > (AD&D), NOT a realistic one (if it was truly austere, then I'd say "ah,
    too
    > bad.").

    I agree with that, actually (I was just pushin your buttons). Sorry; you
    got me started on one (well, two) of the things that bug me (I.E. published
    adventures with lots of magic items, numerous Staffs of Power, etc. but
    then gamers are constantly admonished by the same company that puts out
    these products to "avoid the dangers of power gaming" I.E. do as I say, not
    as I do). I like heroic games where the players have awesome powers, access
    to great magics (which is why BR, with its realm & battle spells is so
    cool), and who face equally (or more) powerful enemies (which is why BR,
    with its Awensheglien and wicked sorcerors is so cool). But some folks like
    to keep the magic level down, and that was my main point re the artifact of
    regeneration. Heck, he only lost his left hand (ok, I'm left handed, so
    that would bug me). Just call him "righty" (no one's ever been called that
    before; it's always "lefty") and have him go on with his life. Might make
    for an interesting character. he could get all kinds of prosthetics made up
    (skrew-on knife and sword hands, etc...) if he's creative.

    Realism: in a game with magic etc. realism might be a push, true. But 1)
    realism within the game system (I.E. no tanks in BR, right?) 2) realism
    when it improves playability. I.E. I wouldn't care so much about the tax vs
    trade income debate if my only problem with it was that it isn't realistic
    real-world wise. My main prob is it is unbalanced, and gives (IMO) one
    class a very large advantage. Thief regent's advantage should be income
    (other classes have magic, armies, etc). But IMO the thief's advantage is
    *too" large, 'cause lots of the time the others end up depending on the
    thief for everything (they can't afford armies, fleets, spells, etc. with
    out him, or have to scrimp and spend a lot of actions just sitting and
    waiting to save up enough cash...meanwhile, the thief is measuring his
    treasury in the hundreds...even thousands...of GB).

    > I hold out no great hope for getting
    > the Book of Preistcraft in Canada before December. After waiting for TSR
    > products for so long, during the buyout, and then having Birthright
    novels
    > cancelled, I am really impatient with further delays now that the stuff
    is
    > being printed.

    I live in the boonies (make that the Haelyn-forsaken boonies); if I want
    anything, I have to mail order it (no game shops around here). I'd suggest
    that if you don't want to wait till your local game store gets the product,
    you mail order it. I think Amazon delivers to Canada. I know for a fact
    that their is at least one mail order place in Canada itself that delivers
    (I can't remember the name, but check out old issues of the Dragon; look
    for the adds that list a bunch of hobby/game stores--there is usually a
    couple listed for Canada.) usually it takes about a week for my loot to
    arrive after I order it...but that's better than waiting several months,
    and you can usually find a place that will give you a good (20-30%)
    discount.

  2. #2
    Michael Andrew Cullingha
    Guest

    Wild income in Anuire, how to g

    > On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, James Ruhland wrote:
    > > > So the landowners impose taxes upon the merchants (Tribute in game
    > > > terms) and if the merchants disagree they send in the troops to impose
    > > > martial law - they can knock those guild holdings (on which the trade
    > > > routes rely) down automatically by occupying their own provinces.
    > > >
    > > Again, though, this restricts the nature of the campaign, 'cause what if
    > > you're playing a character that doesn't want to rely on trade income,
    > > however indirectly, for his cash?
    >
    > Then you're poor. Historically Trade = Wealthy country. Countries
    > without much trade have less money. cf Venice & Genoa during the
    > renaissence and Holland & Britain sometime afterwards. Overall trade
    > generates more money than agriculture, & without trade then that's all
    > you're left with. Even gold is pretty irrelevant if you've not got
    > anything to buy with it.
    >
    > neil

    I must agree. I believe it was Alexander the Great that changed
    his path to conquer the eastern coast of the Meditteranean for
    the purpose of controlling the large amount of trade that went
    through that area. Then he used this money to finance his inland
    campaign.

    At least I think that's how it went. Anyway, the point is that
    controlling trade can be very important in an empire, kingdom, etc.

    Of course, my characters have resorted to out and out piracy
    to make cash, but that's another story.

    Mike

  3. #3
    James Ruhland
    Guest

    Wild income in Anuire, how to g

    >
    > I must agree. I believe it was Alexander the Great that changed
    > his path to conquer the eastern coast of the Meditteranean for
    > the purpose of controlling the large amount of trade that went
    > through that area. Then he used this money to finance his inland
    > campaign.
    >
    Yah; but you'll notice that Alexander the Great wasn't flat out broke to
    the point that he couldn't muster a powerful army. Traditionally, realms
    don't have to be trade heavy to be able to mobilize (muster) big, powerful
    barbarian hordes, much to my distaste. Also, a significant reason for
    Alexander's swing down the Levantine coast and into Egypt was his desire to
    eliminate the ports so he wouldn't have to worry about a fleet
    raiding/invading his rear while he went into Mesopotamia et al. You're
    right that money was a factor, however. But again, he had the cash to
    muster a big army b4 that. Also, trade may have made Italian city states
    wealthy, but not wealthy enough to keep the large, landed powers of France
    and Spain from pretty much doing whatever they wanted with 'em.

  4. #4
    FRANKEN*RC
    Guest

    Wild income in Anuire, how to g

    > > I must agree. I believe it was Alexander the Great that changed
    > > his path to conquer the eastern coast of the Meditteranean for
    > > the purpose of controlling the large amount of trade that went
    > > through that area. Then he used this money to finance his inland
    > > campaign.
    > >
    > Yah; but you'll notice that Alexander the Great wasn't flat out broke to
    > the point that he couldn't muster a powerful army. Traditionally, realms
    > don't have to be trade heavy to be able to mobilize (muster) big, powerful
    > barbarian hordes, much to my distaste. Also, a significant reason for
    > Alexander's swing down the Levantine coast and into Egypt was his desire to
    > eliminate the ports so he wouldn't have to worry about a fleet
    > raiding/invading his rear while he went into Mesopotamia et al. You're
    > right that money was a factor, however. But again, he had the cash to
    > muster a big army b4 that. Also, trade may have made Italian city states
    > wealthy, but not wealthy enough to keep the large, landed powers of France
    > and Spain from pretty much doing whatever they wanted with 'em.
    >
    What IS missing is the fact that you sometimes don't need money to
    muster armies. Sometimes soldiers join under a charismatic leader for
    the promise of plunder.

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