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Thread: Alignments

  1. #1

    Alignments

    * This message contains the file 'blodtabs.txt', which has been
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  2. #2

    Alignments

    Last week I said I'd send in the blood abilities by derivation
    tables, so here they are. I worked them out based on how many each
    had in total, then worked them out as a percentage, so the
    probablities are all the same, allowing for rounding errors.

    Enjoy.

    John.
    "Once I was a lamb, playing in a green field. Then
    the wolves came. Now I am an eagle and I fly in a
    different universe."
    "And now you kill the lambs," whispered Dardalion.
    "No, priest. No one pays for lambs."
    - David Gemmel, Waylander

  3. #3
    Brian Stoner
    Guest

    Alignments

    As the topic has come up, I wanted to share my view on alignments. For
    me, alignments are simply a way to classify the various characters.
    When I adjust a character's alignment it is to bring it more in line
    with the way the character is played, not as some sort of punishment. I
    also believe that good characters, even LG ones, occasionally do evil
    things. Some sort of repentence may be necissary for the religious
    ones. Remorse is necissary as well. Although they cannot reverse or
    even make up for an evil act, they do indicate that the character is of
    the proper alignment. Azrai's blood cannot change a character's
    alignment, but it can tempt them. Everyone, even the greatest Paladin,
    will at sometime let themselves be overcome with temptation. But there
    are ways for it to be dealt with without changing their alignment or
    even forcing the Paladin to change classes. Certainly, the DM has the
    responsibility of carrying out the act's consequences, but redemption is
    always an option.

    Brian

  4. #4
    Glenn Robb
    Guest

    Alignments

    Brian Stoner wrote:

    > As the topic has come up, I wanted to share my view on alignments. For
    > me, alignments are simply a way to classify the various characters.
    > When I adjust a character's alignment it is to bring it more in line
    > with the way the character is played, not as some sort of punishment. =
    I
    > also believe that good characters, even LG ones, occasionally do evil
    > things. Some sort of repentence may be necissary for the religious
    > ones. Remorse is necissary as well. Although they cannot reverse or
    > even make up for an evil act, they do indicate that the character is of
    > the proper alignment. Azrai's blood cannot change a character's
    > alignment, but it can tempt them. Everyone, even the greatest Paladin,
    > will at sometime let themselves be overcome with temptation. But there
    > are ways for it to be dealt with without changing their alignment or
    > even forcing the Paladin to change classes. Certainly, the DM has the
    > responsibility of carrying out the act's consequences, but redemption i=
    s
    > always an option.
    >

    My view of alignment coincides with the AD&D view. I believe that alignm=
    ent
    should be an internal compass rather than an external strait jacket (reme=
    mber
    Palladium and Rifts?). I also believe alignment shows where the characte=
    r
    stands in the war between Evil and Good. A man aligned with Law and Good=
    often
    is forced to do evil acts (killing) in an evil situation (war).

    But a Lawful Good ruler would not institute war ("Oh great axe, I've
    feared to call upon you again, but this war cannot be avoided," the Grea=
    t Ak
    in the Story of Santa Claus). While a neutral good warrior or lawful neu=
    tral
    king might (e.g. Henry V). But a Lawful Evil dictator will institute war=
    if it
    serves his purpose (Hitler).

    But there is another side. Alignment is not personality. For instance, =
    you
    can play an SOB who is Lawful Good (as long as he stays Lawful Good, anyw=
    ays),
    or a chivalristic chaotic evil anti-paladin. Personality is a complete,
    separate thing. Therefore, I often tell my players to think of a demeano=
    r, or
    basic personality trait, before they choose their alignment.

    Of course they would most probably pick the alignment that is the most
    compatible to that demeanor. But I hope you can see my point. Which is
    personality is completely different from alignment. And it's often perso=
    nality
    that causes the alignment shifts.

    =97 Elton Robb
    "Your Generously Liberal GM."

  5. #5
    Trizt
    Guest

    Alignments

    On 01-Nov-97, Glenn Robb (GLENNROBB@prodigy.net) wrote about Re: [BIRTHRIGHT]
    - - Alignments:


    - ->Brian Stoner wrote:

    - ->My view of alignment coincides with the AD&D view. I believe that alignment
    - ->should be an internal compass rather than an external strait jacket
    (remember
    - ->Palladium and Rifts?). I also believe alignment shows where the character
    - ->stands in the war between Evil and Good. A man aligned with Law and Good
    - ->often is forced to do evil acts (killing) in an evil situation (war).

    No I have deleted much of the original mail and some may say I did do that to
    much and have missed to read that part.

    - ->Of course they would most probably pick the alignment that is the most
    - ->compatible to that demeanor. But I hope you can see my point. Which is
    - ->personality is completely different from alignment. And it's often
    - ->personality that causes the alignment shifts.
    Wartimes does change the alignment ALOT, if we take a look at our world, say
    pre world war 2 or bosnia. Here most of the future consentration camp guards
    where the kind family father which we would class as LG, but when the war
    begun and they become more "chaotic" and when they then became camp guards
    they become those "monsters" who killed and raiped. Afterwards many years they
    begun to move back to the life they had before the wars, now followed by the
    memories of what happened. So personality isn't the only alignment changer,
    the situation (spl?) does alot for your alignment. So a strict alignment is
    quite bad as it's sortof is in adnd.

    //Trizt of Ward^RITE

    -

  6. #6
    Tripp Elliott
    Guest

    Alignments

    Glenn Robb wrote:

    > But a Lawful Good ruler would not institute war ("Oh great axe, I've
    > feared to call upon you again, but this war cannot be avoided," the Great Ak
    > in the Story of Santa Claus). While a neutral good warrior or lawful neutral
    > king might (e.g. Henry V). But a Lawful Evil dictator will institute war if it
    > serves his purpose (Hitler).

    I agreed with virtually everything you had to say except the part about
    LG rulers not starting wars.

    Let's say I'm the LG ruler of Baruk-Azhik, or Coeranys, if you ask me, I
    am perfectly justified in sending my armies across the borders of the
    Chimaeron in order to kill the Chimaera and free those people from her
    oppression. Or if I'm the LG ruler of Mhoried[and a bit suicidal] I
    could hurl my forces against the Gorgon. It's all just a matter of why
    am igoing to war really.

    Ok, that's my 2GB on this.

    Tripp

  7. #7
    Tripp Elliott
    Guest

    Alignments

    Brian Stoner wrote:

    > Interesting point... My point of view is that alignment directly
    > affects personality and the opposite. Essentially, the two are tied
    > together. As I see it, alignment is related to the characters moral
    > stance, which is part of personality.
    >
    > Brian

    I'm going to commit a mortal sin here and use a Dragonlance Character to
    Illustrate a point on the Birthright Mailing List.

    The characters Sturm and Steel from Dragonlance are my subjects. Sturm
    is your standard LG Paladin while I would call Steel your standard LE
    AntiPaladin. That's all fine and well so far as alignment goes, but
    from a personality standpoint the two were virtually identical.
    Chivalry, honor, respect of womanhood all of that occur in both, despite
    their alignments.

    Ok, enough of that from me.

    Tripp

  8. #8
    James Ruhland
    Guest

    Alignments

    But a Lawful Good ruler would not institute war.

    Why not? If he does so within the accepted rules of warfare, why should he
    be any diferent than the other good (Neutral and Chaotic) people you
    mentioned? Is tolerating extream evil in a neighboring land just because
    you don't want to institute a war Lawful Good?

    But there is another side. Alignment is not personality. For instance,
    you
    can play an SOB who is Lawful Good (as long as he stays Lawful Good,
    anyways),
    or a chivalristic chaotic evil anti-paladin.

    Within limits alignment is not personality; but you have to admit it
    influences it. I, for one, could see a chivalristic lawful-evil dude (obeys
    the code, etc), but not likely a chaotic evil one (no time for such rules,
    changes with the wind--he might be polite to thouse with more power than
    him, but would be crewl to the weak). Read the alignment descriptions; to a
    large degree your behavior (thus personality) is what causes your alignment
    to be what it is. "he's kind to children and small animals, courtious to
    ladies, never steals or betrays a friend. Oh, and he's chaotic evil."

    > Wartimes does change the alignment ALOT, if we take a look at our world,
    say
    > pre world war 2 or bosnia. Here most of the future consentration camp
    guards
    > where the kind family father which we would class as LG, but when the war
    > begun and they become more "chaotic" and when they then became camp
    guards
    > they become those "monsters" who killed and raiped...

    I hope I don't insult anyone, but, IMO, the alignments didn't change. Can
    they really be said to have been LG when, the first time the oportunity
    arose, they acted as they did? I mean, evil types may live somewhat quiet
    lives (expressing their nature in less open ways), but their true nature
    comes out when social order breaks down, be it temporary (a power outage
    that causes thouse with little respect for others and their property to
    take advantage of the situation to rob, beat, and rape others) or for a
    longer time (Beirut, the former Yugoslavia; when these type of folks
    engaged in similar acts for a longer period of time). I don't think that
    after something like that you can assume that mild mannered Dr. Mengele in
    pre-war Germany was a LG type, becoming CE during the war, and then
    reverting back to LG after it.

    I wasn't gonna talk about this anymore, but some people seem to need
    a...clarification.

    > Why do you say NOW? It has always been written this way in the rule
    book,
    > and I don't believe (although I could be istaken) that this is a "new
    > rule" or a clarification.

    If you read the whole paragraph, you'll notice a little phrase that refers
    to Ed asking for advice on rule changes etc? Remember that? Perhaps I
    wasn't entirely clear, so let me spell it out: When the game came out, and
    up to this point, for the entire time, you could use RPs to influence the
    level of the province. But perhaps *IN THE FUTURE* it might be a good idea
    to disalow that, because it makes ruling up province levels too easy. I.E.
    *NOW* you can use RPs to do so, as you always could, but I think *IN THE
    FUTURE* you should only be able to use RPs to rule up holding levels, not
    province levels. OK?

    > the books seem to indicate this is the effect. Remember, guilds don't
    > make all their money though trade routes. There is a lot of business to
    > be made from the product of the guild itself to the local populace.
    > Prodicing a product or selling a service can be a monopoly in a
    region..If
    > I have a guild of 75% of the blacksmiths in a province, I guess I control
    > 75% of that particular part of the economy. In BR, I believe it is
    > assumed the guilds are the Major product or service af that particular
    > region, thus ending up as roughly the majority of the provinces economy..

    Ok, so that means if you control a Guild (4) in a province (4) you control
    everything; all the agricultural land included. (what do the
    aristocrats/nobles have?), where do the other regents (landed, temple) get
    off getting any money at all without your leave? IMO, my suspension of
    disbelief just crashed big time if guilds are *this* monopolistic. They're
    practically Stalin & Mao's ideal, then.

  9. #9
    Trizt
    Guest

    Alignments

    On 01-Nov-97, James Ruhland (jruhlconob@sprynet.com) wrote about Re:
    [BIRTHRIGHT] - Alignments:

    - ->> Wartimes does change the alignment ALOT, if we take a look at our world,
    - ->say
    - ->> pre world war 2 or bosnia. Here most of the future consentration camp
    - ->guards
    - ->> where the kind family father which we would class as LG, but when the war
    - ->> begun and they become more "chaotic" and when they then became camp
    - ->guards they become those "monsters" who killed and raiped...

    - ->I hope I don't insult anyone, but, IMO, the alignments didn't change. Can
    - ->they really be said to have been LG when, the first time the oportunity
    - ->arose, they acted as they did? I mean, evil types may live somewhat quiet
    - ->lives (expressing their nature in less open ways), but their true nature
    - ->comes out when social order breaks down, be it temporary (a power outage
    - ->that causes thouse with little respect for others and their property to
    - ->take advantage of the situation to rob, beat, and rape others) or for a
    - ->longer time (Beirut, the former Yugoslavia; when these type of folks
    - ->engaged in similar acts for a longer period of time). I don't think that
    - ->after something like that you can assume that mild mannered Dr. Mengele in
    - ->pre-war Germany was a LG type, becoming CE during the war, and then
    - ->reverting back to LG after it.

    I didn't say that everyone did do go from LG->CE->LG, only most of them, and
    if we would look at Dr. Mengele, he was quite freindly and helpful when he
    lived in Paraguay (spl?, I think it was there he lived after the war). I can't
    be certant about this as it's not confirmed that he was he.

    To the point why I say that happenings like wars changes alignement it's for I
    read an "medical" report about peoples mentality during wartimes. Humans
    becomes extremle crule and does things which they wouldn't have done during
    peacetime and would have voted for a death penalty for a such action if they
    would have been in the jury. R. Sobel at Pentagon could prolly inform you more
    about how we do work when something like war happens.
    //Trizt of Ward^RITE

    -

  10. #10
    Glenn Robb
    Guest

    Alignments

    > --
    > hello, Adam Theo here,
    > ok, sorry for all of these posts, but i'm trying to reply to all that's
    > in my mailboxes in the next two days.
    > i've done away with alignments.
    > there you have it.
    > i instead have the player choose a few descriptive words of his char.
    > and we use a word or two for things like Detect Alignment and the
    > bloodabilty that does the similar thing.
    > how's this sound?

    Let me buy Alternity or Future Law and get back to you on that one.

    =97 Elton Robb

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