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  1. #1
    lyndon@pobox.com (Lyndon
    Guest

    Limiting Gunpowder

    My main concern on limiting gunpowder in any campaign I would run
    would be its strategic effect on power. Cannons made it possible to
    knock down medieval castles fairly quickly. This meant that larger,
    more centralized, more absolute states were possible. After that the
    sizes of states, armies and wars tended to grow, so armies would be in
    the tens of thousands, and individual characters less significant, and
    more run over by the games of kings.
    This is not absolute, many people have been able to write
    adventure stories where individuals were significant (for instance
    THETHREE MUSKETEERS), but I often prefer a smaller scale.

    Once cannons come in, middle ages go out. (The Ottoman Turks used
    cannons successfuly in the seige of Constantinople, just before it
    became Istanbul in 1453). Offensive wars gain a great deal of
    offense.

    I am less concerned about individual guns. This took centuries of
    development to be signficiantly more effective than crossbows, let
    alone trained longbowmen (a big gun advantage was that basic training
    took so much less time. )

    I like the idea of Realm magic causing gunpowder to explode. Simple,
    elegent, raises questions:
    What about swamp gas? Natural gas in mines? Coal? Other
    flammables? The real world bombadier beetle for instance.

    Realm magic cast by true mages is derived from clerical magic, from
    the power of the blown up gods. What about clerical spells (realm or
    otherwise). If everytime a cleric cast Bless or Heal, gunpowder in
    the several yards around went Boom, either clerics or gunpowder would
    be less widespread. Gunpowder looked suspeiciously hellish in our
    worlds, this would be additional evidence ...

    If Realm spells would make gunpowder spontaneously explode (notice
    there have been a whole lot of "ifs" in the last few paragraphs), what
    about godly spells in the millenia preceding?

    Need to do more thought experiments.

    Lyndon

  2. #2
    James Ruhland
    Guest

    Limiting Gunpowder

    My main concern on limiting gunpowder in any campaign I would run
    would be its strategic effect on power. Cannons made it possible to
    knock down medieval castles fairly quickly. This meant that larger,
    more centralized, more absolute states were possible. After that the
    sizes of states, armies and wars tended to grow, so armies would be in
    the tens of thousands, and individual characters less significant, and
    more run over by the games of kings.

    Which wasn't possible before gunpowder; only petty empires like the Roman,
    Chinese, and Mongol empires were possible. 8-). Anyhow, the same
    individuals who can survive ground zero of a fireball can probably do fine
    in the blast zone of a cannon. Also, these early devices were...volitile.
    PCs (or whoever) who rely on them on the battlefield will come to grief
    often enough to not make it worthwhile. Plus, what about adventures?
    Spending time in dank underground areas with water dripping from the
    cealing, or trudging through swamps and snowdrifts getting beset by all
    manner of foul beasts, can't be good for keeping your firearms in working
    conditions (plus, make more use of specialized monsters; just as their are
    monsters specialized to make, say, psionics, more chancy, their could be
    monsters who just love to feed on gunpowder. Small, microscopic,
    undetectable ones...) Another solution, which already has AD&D Precidence
    is to make gunpowder require some "mystical" component, a la the gunpowder
    described in Spelljammer. This makes it rarer, more expensive, and harder
    to duplicate (perhaps gunpowder requires some component that can only be
    attained in quantity from a few mines in Aduria? Then it would be hard for
    Cerilian powers to produce it in quantity, while still being available to
    the Adurians, at least the ones who control the mines. Just a thought for
    thouse of you who are interested in adding gunpowder weapons to your
    campaigns, but don't want them to dominate...)

    Once cannons come in, middle ages go out. (The Ottoman Turks used
    cannons successfuly in the seige of Constantinople, just before it
    became Istanbul in 1453). Offensive wars gain a great deal of
    offense.

    Did you know that M. the C. almost gave up the siege? That his vaunted
    cannon had trouble breaching the walls? and that, when he decided to mount
    one more assault on the Queen of Cities, it was not the cannon that
    breached the walls, but a gate left carelessly unatended (well, we didn't
    have that many defenders left at the time, not that this is an acceptable
    excuse) that allowed the Turks to enter the city? So, in this example,
    individuals still mattered (Guistiniani, a Mercenary leader in our employ,
    was wounded, and when he left the battle, his men went with him. Mehmet the
    C. was more than instrumental in firing his troops up for the battle; even
    though their were probably over 100,000 of 'em, the actions of the "regent"
    of the turks was still important. To say nothing of the heroism and digity
    of Constantine XI Paleologous, last Emperor of the Romans, who, in defeat,
    managed to salvage much of the honor and legacy of a realm that hadn't seen
    much of either in its last few centuries of existance.) So, even in the
    gunpowder age, even in real history, individuals do, and did, matter. I
    wonder what the name of that soldier was who found the unguarded gate that
    let them enter the Queen of Cities?

    [Sorry, personal buggabo: Constantinople wasn't renamed until this century.
    It remained (officially) Constantinople throughout Ottoman times, being
    renamed by K. Ataturk after WW I. Of course, it still is Constantinople,
    because illigitimite ocupiers have no right to name or rename anything.]

    Porphyrogenetus,
    Avtokrator Kai Basilius Rhomaion

  3. #3
    lyndon@pobox.com (Lyndon
    Guest

    Limiting Gunpowder

    Thank you for your informative post. I'm responding several times to
    different subjects in it.

    =46irst though, my posts will always have deficiences due to two main
    reasons:
    Haste
    Ignorance

    Haste is likely to be a perenial long-term problem. Ignorance is
    partly, but never fully treatable.

    In some areas we may be in substantial agreement, in some we may be on
    a parallel courses. For instance I fully agree that early gunpwoder
    devices were volatile, and would become even less ideal after trudging
    through swamps and snowdrifts.

    Requiring special componenets for gunpowder in magic world goes back
    at least to Zelazny's NINE PRINCES IN AMBER and GUNS OF AVALON (not
    sure of copyright dates, I read them before I read D&D, though D&D was
    out there ...)

    In one campaign world I had microrganisms that tended to munch free
    sulfer promptly. Purifying sulfer and keeping it pure required a
    hermetically sealed alchemists lab. Sealed bullets could
    theoretically have been imported from a crossover world, but the
    intermediate steps would be squashed enough to prevent local
    development.

    Anyway I think we are in agreement that:

    Gunpowder would not immediately overrun a campaign
    Gunpowder can be limited in a number of ways by the individual GM=20
    Gunpowder can be flat out stamped out and forbidden by indidivudal
    GM by a variety of means.

    Lyndon

  4. #4
    Robert Harper
    Guest

    Limiting Gunpowder

    Another reason for not 'fearing' firearms is that the various skill
    improvements in weapon use generally favour melee weapons over missile
    weapons. The rate of fire on gunpowder weapons (out of Players Option
    books) is such that they can deliver a good 'punch' opening, but by the time
    they're ready to use again the foe has either (a) retreated or sought cover
    or (b) closed to fight hand to hand.

    Firearms are also less useful against creatures only struck by magical
    weapons. Even if a character has magical shot (useable once), if they load
    it they must risk wasting it against mundane targets or if not loaded, but
    the time they do load it once again foe has closed. A character can select
    and use a magical arrow out of their quiver without slowing their bow's rate
    of fire; but PC's want to carry their pistols loaded and so must chose in
    advance or risk forfeiting their usefulness.

    I run a campaign with firearms; generally the PC's at most use a gun at the
    opening of an encounter when range/intent of opposing group favour it. In
    the past few sessions the most memorable incidents involving firearms were:
    gun exploding in character's hand due to misfire (per Players Option rules);
    character firing gun into a melee and accidentally shooting another PC
    (ironically, playing the role of first player's bodyguard) in the back;
    character shooting an undead creature and cursing when bullet passed
    harmlessly through it. This is not to say that several monsters have not
    been badly hurt by firearms, including the open-ended damage rule. But the
    most spectacular firearm inflicted death was a high level PC who decided to
    insult an officer in charge of a dozen men with muskets levelled at her.

    I should mention, that I rule lead bullets gain temporary magic resistance
    when in flight (a combination of lead's antimagical properties and something
    imparted by high speed which the wizards of the world have yet to explain or
    duplicate) and ignore any magical armour class factors.

    This means that a PC, even a high level one, should respect a squad of
    musketeers who are ready for them - but can still heroicly make mincemeat of
    them in hand to hand melee; they just have to roleplay intelligently and
    strategically, make use of a few swashbuckling maneuvres etc to avoid
    getting shot and close to fight.

    I prefer this dynamic to one where higher level PC's feel free to treat a
    party of 10 or 20 normal soldiers or guardsmen with complete disdain.

    In the end, I agree it is the DM's choice for the flavour of the world s/he
    wants to create. I wanted a 17th Century swashbuckling flavour (Errol Flynn
    fan, what can I say) so I included firearms. If you want a Celtic flavour,
    or anyone of a number of others they don't fit so well.

    __________________________________________________ _________________
    | |
    | We ask ourselves if there is a God, how can this happen? |
    | Better to ask, if there is a God, must it be sane? |
    | |
    | Lucien LaCroix |
    |_________________________________________________ __________________|

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