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  1. #1

    Adurian power/Gunpowder

    > 'Magicians' were often 'scientists' and vice versa in our own history, when
    > magic was still seen as more real, and where one left off and other began
    > unclear and magic does follow rational principles in most campaigns where it
    > is used. I think wizards would be 'scientists', a basic understanding of
    > magic would probably be a prerequisite for any scholar or academic, even a
    > naturalist, as magic offers so much assistance to other lines of inquiry.
    > So the inventor of new technology would usually be a mage.
    Hmmm... I suppose so, but would they be the kind of people to get
    their discoveries out in the open market, so to speak? Or would they
    keep it to themselves and their own advantage in the usual magical
    power plays...... I dunno.

    > Even if mages nonetheless tried to suppress gunpowder it would be about as
    > effective as attempts to suppress crossbows, dum-dum bullets, poison gas or
    > land mines. Mixed at best. Only weapons everyone capable of accessing
    > agrees carry too high a price to use, or are not actually important enough
    > to argue about, or have offensive moral implications out of proportion to
    > their military value can be banned. A world that has even a few magicians
    > running around is hardly likely to decide gunpowder is such a terrible
    > menace - at least not before it's too late.
    Aaah, but it's not the world that might decide. The wizards
    themselves could well see it as a threat to their livelihoods.
    Supressing it would be difficult, I agree, unless it was nipped in
    the bud, so to speak, or unless horribly powerful
    'erase-someone-from-history' type magic was employed.


    > A better control on gunpowder in fantasy setting is the availability of fire
    > magics that make carrying gunpowder hazardous.
    That's a very Paranoia R&D thing you have there...... hmm......

    I suppose, when it all comes down to it, it's just whether the
    individual GM wants gunpowder or not. Personally, I tend not to
    (although finding alternatives when you ~really~ want something blown
    up can be a nuisance) because I have a sneaking suspicion that my
    players would try their best to get away with anything they could
    with the stuff, and I don't need that added hastle. Mind you, the
    idea of 'the Ignitor' pyromancer arch-enemy is an interesting way
    around that........ ;-)

    John.

    "Once I was a lamb, playing in a green field. Then
    the wolves came. Now I am an eagle and I fly in a
    different universe."
    "And now you kill the lambs," whispered Dardalion.
    "No, priest. No one pays for lambs."
    - David Gemmel, Waylander

  2. #2
    Robert Harper
    Guest

    Adurian power/Gunpowder

    I don't find the 'suppression of technology' by jealous wizards argument
    very persuasive. We see magic and technology as opposed things because our
    society views one as unreal and the other as real and having displaced the
    first. If both were real, one displacing the other would not be an issue
    anymore than geology displaces biology.

    'Magicians' were often 'scientists' and vice versa in our own history, when
    magic was still seen as more real, and where one left off and other began
    unclear and magic does follow rational principles in most campaigns where it
    is used. I think wizards would be 'scientists', a basic understanding of
    magic would probably be a prerequisite for any scholar or academic, even a
    naturalist, as magic offers so much assistance to other lines of inquiry.
    So the inventor of new technology would usually be a mage.

    Even if mages nonetheless tried to suppress gunpowder it would be about as
    effective as attempts to suppress crossbows, dum-dum bullets, poison gas or
    land mines. Mixed at best. Only weapons everyone capable of accessing
    agrees carry too high a price to use, or are not actually important enough
    to argue about, or have offensive moral implications out of proportion to
    their military value can be banned. A world that has even a few magicians
    running around is hardly likely to decide gunpowder is such a terrible
    menace - at least not before it's too late. When it's first invented no one
    will likely realize how far things will go, it will be decades at least
    before even crude usable weapons result and casting cannon will come later.

    A better control on gunpowder in fantasy setting is the availability of fire
    magics that make carrying gunpowder hazardous.

    Burning Hands, Lightning Bolt, Fireball, Flaming Sphere etc etc would all
    trigger the gunpowder in early weapons (without sealed shells, the powder
    being loose), and if they penetrated a powder horn - oooooh, nasty for
    whoever carried it. Similarly, the large quantity of gunpowder required on
    hand for cannons etc. would make that a very tempting target for a mage.

    Unless your gunpowder is magic-proofed, it is of very limited use and no one
    is going to want to be very close to any quantity of it. It would have use
    in traps and other 'fixed' situations, some use in mining and 'industrial'
    applications but cramming castles or ships full of it would be begging for
    trouble.

    I do use gunpowder weapons in a fantasy setting, but a dwarven merchant
    house invented a process called 'nulling' which renders objects magic
    resistant and almost all gunpowder is nulled. It also can't be teleported,
    kept in extradimensional spaces etc, as a result.

    __________________________________________________ _________________
    | |
    | We ask ourselves if there is a God, how can this happen? |
    | Better to ask, if there is a God, must it be sane? |
    | |
    | Lucien LaCroix |
    |_________________________________________________ __________________|

  3. #3
    Brian Stoner
    Guest

    Adurian power/Gunpowder

    Although I know this thread was started by me, I just thought of one
    possible answer to the worry of contamination... That is not allowing
    the use of gunpowder to spread to Cerilia from Aduria (if we decide they
    can use it). Gunpowder and true magic don't mix...at all. Whenever
    magic is used in the presence of gunpowder it set it off. Realm magic
    will set off all gunpowder in the provence (or any provence that the
    spell is cast). This will make for an interesting situation should
    anybody decide to take it to Cerilia. If the Adurians don't use true
    magic (as was assumed for the thread), they don't need to worry about
    it...until they take on the Cerilians wizards. Perhaps the use of
    gunpowder on anything magical will result in something akin to a
    wildsurge as per the wild mage stuff in the Tome of Magic. Thus, it is
    dangerous to try and blast open the magically sealed chest.

    Brian

  4. #4
    James Ruhland
    Guest

    Adurian power/Gunpowder

    > Aaah, but it's not the world that might decide. The wizards
    > themselves could well see it as a threat to their livelihoods.
    > Supressing it would be difficult, I agree, unless it was nipped in
    > the bud, so to speak, or unless horribly powerful
    > 'erase-someone-from-history' type magic was employed.
    >
    How many True Mages are their in Aduria? Enough to make their wishes felt
    against the wishes of the king and his cronies? As for magicians, they're
    unlikely to have the clout nessisary to block such an inovation, especially
    since though they contribute greatly (no doubt) to the strength and power
    of the royal secret police, they can't contribute much to his armies. So
    horribly powerful magic would be unlikely to be employed, and by the time
    the global center of magecraft (Cerilia) found out about this inovation, it
    would probably be widespread throughout Aduria. Just Philosophic ramblings
    on my part, though, 'cause I don't wanna see gunpowder introduced in any
    case.

  5. #5
    lyndon@pobox.com (Lyndon
    Guest

    Adurian power/Gunpowder

    I like the reminder that magicians were often scientists. In our most
    documented of worlds (Earth) where I am typing, intense seekers of
    knowledge tended to be curious in anything they could get their hands
    on. Sir Isaac Newton worked on prisms and gravity and telescopes and
    trying to calculate the size of the beast's horn in the book of
    Revaltions and dabbled heavily in illegal alchemical experiments.
    Before that Kepler developed his laws of motion as an aid to atrology.
    Later chemistry and earlier alchemy were inextricably mixed for
    centuries (millenia) as was medicine and religion. The Museum of
    Alexander was ostensibly dedicated to goddesses (the Muses), etc. =20

    Creative curisoity tends not to respect boundary but burst out all
    over. Creative genius tends to find connections where none was
    visible before (such as the falling apple in the garden and the moon
    overhead). If there were magical phenemna avaible attentive creators
    would have searched them out. Leonardo da Vinci dissected human
    corpses to learn about anatomy. If there were spells available would
    he have not sought knowledge of them too? (One good feather fall plus
    his existing designs would probably have made a workable flying
    machine).

    Illusionists depend on a knowledge of light, would they not seek out
    anything they could learn about optics, prisms, lenses? And from that
    eventually you get magnifying glasses, burning lenses, and telescope
    and microscopes (what each would reveal in Cerillia is a good
    question).

    Would druids be uninterested in long term effects of events on the
    community they are interested in? Ecology and Mendelian genetics
    could be developed legitimately from their interests. Etc.

    Alchemist will mix up anything they can get their hands on. Something
    will go boom! Most booms will not be cost effective without a lot of
    reseach (i.e. is powdered flame-red ruby a key ingredient or not), but
    unless chemistry works drastically differently something will go boom.

    An enjoyable depiction of a mage was in Barbara Hambley's Darwath
    books, where an overriding charestic of the mage was insatiable
    curiosity. =20




    =3D=3D=3D
    When I dig up any of my copies of THE TWO TOWERS I will work on
    limitations of mages researchs.

  6. #6
    Glenn Robb
    Guest

    Adurian power/Gunpowder

    Hmm. I must remember that the next time I make a PC mage with 16
    intelligence. Insatiable curosity. Bring on the reign of science in BR!=
    By
    the way, Alchemists would do that, even if they arn't skilled in relating=
    magic
    to the physical universe.

    =97 Elton Robb
    "Your Generously liberal GM."


    >
    > An enjoyable depiction of a mage was in Barbara Hambley's Darwath
    > books, where an overriding charestic of the mage was insatiable
    > curiosity.

  7. #7
    lyndon@pobox.com (Lyndon
    Guest

    Adurian power/Gunpowder

    Of course if intelligence exceeded constitution (or wisdom) you could
    easily get a character who started lots more projects than he finished
    ...

    Lyndon


    On Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:12:25 -0700, you wrote:

    >Hmm. I must remember that the next time I make a PC mage with 16
    >intelligence. Insatiable curosity. Bring on the reign of science in =
    BR! By
    >the way, Alchemists would do that, even if they arn't skilled in =
    relating magic
    >to the physical universe.
    >
    >=97 Elton Robb
    >"Your Generously liberal GM."
    >
    >

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