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  1. #1
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Since the Chapter 1 Revision is still a draft and [hopefully] still revisable, I wanted to bring up the issue of BR paladins and the choices for free multiclassing.

    There are 5 paladin types in BR, each dedicated to a specific deity: Haelyn, Neserie, Cuiraecen, Avani, and Moradin.

    Except for Paladins of Neserie, the other 4 can all multiclass freely without losing any of their special paladin abilities. In this light, why are Paladins of Neserie excluded from this otherwise pervasive theme?

    Paladins of Neserie are excluded from this. What makes them "special" is that they trade their magical warhorse for a few bonus spells of relatively paltry power. Now, anyone who's ever played a paladin that really uses that warhorse as an extension of themselves knows that they can be a powerful advantage in any land battle, they serve as intelligent, bonded guards, they'll protect you when you go down...they're a rather big advantage on land, in other words. But gaining a bonus spell (Sea Domain: Obscuring Mist, Fog Cloud, Water Walk, Control Water) of levels 1 to 4 (and the higher ones only at very high levels).

    Don't get me wrong: the Sea Domain was a nice thematic touch (though I think Obs. Mist and Fog Cloud rather redundant powers), but I don't think it quite measures up to the power of a magical warhorse that grows more powerful along with the paladin.

    This, combined with no multiclassing, means the Paladins of Neserie get shortchanged in the balance of things, and stand as a less attractive choice for players to run. Personally, I'm sick of portraying Neserie and her servants as mewling weaklings who just don't measure up in any department except healing and compassion. Where's the rage of the stormy sea that birthed Cuiraecen?

    SO....here's my suggestion for an alternative for them:

    Paladins of Neserie are known for their devotion to their goddess, matched perhaps only by the Paladins of Haelyn. The may freely multiclass as clerics, choosing 2 domains normally. At 5th level, instead of gaining a magical warhorse, Paladins of Neserie may pray for a bonus domain spell for each level of paladin spells they are able to cast. If the paladin has cleric levels, these spells may be chosen from one of the 2 domains already chosen. Otherwise, the character should choose a single domain of Neserie (Good, Protection, Healing, or the Sea).

    That one is my personal favorite, as it gives a bit more flexibility while conveying a theme of devotion to their goddess (as clerics will be even more spiritually devoted). But for those who don't like that, here's another alternative:

    As paladins' warhprse are equivalent to Familiars, allow paladins of Neserie to instead gain an aquatic animal as a familiar. This should be some creature or creatures native to the sea (including dolphins, seals, seabirds, whales, sharks...and no, sharks are NOT evil...though imposing an Intelligence penalty on the paladin might keep such a familiar in balance).

    Osprey
    (stay tuned for the companion piece below, on revamping Paladins of Haelyn&#33

  2. #2
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Paladins of Haelyn:

    Haelyn is the god of War, Nobility, Law, and Leadership. Paladins devoted to him may freely multiclass as clerics? This has never made much sense to me. War Priests of Healyn would do better as Fighter/Clerics anyways.

    Why not allow paladins of Haelyn to freely multiclass as Nobles? This would make them uniquely suited to be theocratic regents, a theme I think would be a very rich addition to the BR world, especially in Anuire.

    Honestly, this seems to me such a logical extension that I'm not sure any further supporting argument is necessary. What do the rest of the folks of the BR community think?

    Osprey

    -And as a general note: Paladins of Cuiraecen as Fighter/Paladins is very cool. Paladins of Avani as Paladin/Mages is also a neat thematic element, and makes for some very interesting class potential. Paladins of Moradin as Expert/Paladins? I suppose...luckily, Fighter/Paladins are also an option for them, which is a potent combination, so no shortchanging for them! These three I think should remain as they are, it's Neserie and Haelyn that need reworked IMO.

  3. #3
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    As an act if mischief, I`ll just toss in the idea that paladins should not

    be a class, but a template.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  4. #4
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 11:10 AM 3/17/2004 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:



    >As an act if mischief, I`ll just toss in the idea that paladins should not

    >be a class, but a template.



    Paladin should be a prestige class.



    Gary

  5. #5
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 05:50 PM 3/17/2004 +0100, Osprey wrote:



    > Why not allow paladins of Haelyn to freely multiclass as Nobles? This

    > would make them uniquely suited to be theocratic regents, a theme I think

    > would be a very rich addition to the BR world, especially in Anuire.

    >

    > Honestly, this seems to me such a logical extension that I`m not sure

    > any further supporting argument is necessary. What do the rest of the

    > folks of the BR community think?



    I`ll buy it. Of course, the restriction on multi-classing for paladins

    (and monks) never made a lot of sense to me in the first place, so I might

    not be the most objective voice on the subject....



    Gary

  6. #6
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Paladins make a good PrC, no doubt about it. What I like about the

    template, though, is the elasticity provided. Since in general the paladin

    concept is a cross between cleric and fighter, a PrC fixes that balance.

    The BAB is either a fighter`s or a clerics. The class features are

    pre-determined. A template, allows the character to be all fighter, with

    paladin feats. Or even all rogue, or all wizard. Or a multi-class mix as

    the player desires. Paladin`s don`t need their own BAB, saves, or HD. they

    can just use the one`s of their base class. What makes a paladin a paladin

    is his special access to feats that no one else has. Even the spellcasting

    can be managed for those who want it by multi-classing as a cleric. Its

    just so flexible, its fun to see what players do with it.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  7. #7
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    In our campaign the Paladin class has been replaced with the Holy Warrior class (taken from Green Ronin's - "The Book of the Righteous"). It serves us well, and doesn't conjure up the "Things that make you go hmmm...." from 2nd edition.

  8. #8
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    Paladins are just fine as a standard class.



    ================================================== ==========

    Fra: Gary <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>

    Dato: 2004/03/17 Wed PM 06:57:15 CET

    Til: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM

    Emne: Re: Paladins and Multiclassing [36#2363]



    At 11:10 AM 3/17/2004 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:



    >As an act if mischief, I`ll just toss in the idea that paladins should not

    >be a class, but a template.



    Paladin should be a prestige class.



    Gary













    ================================================== ==========





    Cheers

    Bjørn



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    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

  9. #9
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    Paladins are just fine as a standard class.
    I mooted this before, and in my campaign at least, been proved right since. Paladin&#39;s detect evil at will is unbalancing in any campaign that moves beyond simple dungeoneering.

    One more vote for prestige class (at least) I&#39;m afraid.

    CM.

  10. #10
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Since the Chapter 1 Revision is still a draft and [hopefully] still revisable,
    Yup it is very much up for discussion.

    Except for Paladins of Neserie, the other 4 can all multiclass freely without losing any of their special paladin abilities. In this light, why are Paladins of Neserie excluded from this otherwise pervasive theme?

    Paladins of Neserie are excluded from this. What makes them "special" is that they trade their magical warhorse for a few bonus spells of relatively paltry power. Now, anyone who&#39;s ever played a paladin that really uses that warhorse as an extension of themselves knows that they can be a powerful advantage in any land battle, they serve as intelligent, bonded guards, they&#39;ll protect you when you go down...they&#39;re a rather big advantage on land, in other words. But gaining a bonus spell (Sea Domain: Obscuring Mist, Fog Cloud, Water Walk, Control Water) of levels 1 to 4 (and the higher ones only at very high levels).

    Don&#39;t get me wrong: the Sea Domain was a nice thematic touch (though I think Obs. Mist and Fog Cloud rather redundant powers), but I don&#39;t think it quite measures up to the power of a magical warhorse that grows more powerful along with the paladin.
    Something I think you have missed is the granted power of the domain. Paladin&#39;s of Nesire gain the domain granted power (water breathing). This is very much on par with equvalent power levels.

    Since they don&#39;t need to multi-class in order to gain this they gain greater benefit from their paladin levels. They gains spells quicker (also a bonus spell per the rules for domain spells), increased healing benefits, etc.

    This was an attempt to capture what the 2nd ed paladin had as far as special abilities. In 2nd ed paladins of Nesire did not have special mounts but they gained the granted abilities of the the priests (i.e., the domain granted power).
    Duane Eggert

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