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  1. #1
    Bryon Switala
    Guest

    Alternate Spy Network Rules--LO

    At 08:15 PM 10/8/97 -0400, you wrote:

    Since I mostly play Guilders I'll only comment on Guilds and Law.

    >CREATE COVERT HOLDING
    >Covert guilds can also be covertly Ruled (as x3 the regular cost), but only
    if there >is "space" availble for that holding type. Law holdings are the
    exception to this >rule (see below).

    What happens when the regent that owns the land trys to rule his/her own
    holding levels up? Or does this not effect the max level of holding,
    because the spy network does not get gold and regency from this holding?


    >COVERT ACTIONS
    > -Basic intellegence.
    > -Espionage. The regent can spend 1 GB to gain an espionage action
    >as a free activity in that province.

    Does that mean that I get an extra action over and above my thre and my
    lieutenants one?

    > -Underground Trade Route. If a covert guild is not adjacent to
    >other holdings, an underground trade route must be established to connect
    >the two if anything other than information is to be passed between them.
    >Setting up an underground trade route costs the same as a regular trade
    >route if a roadb or river exists linking the two holdings,

    How about a sea route?

    >If used for smuggling, the route generates half the gold that a regular
    trade route >would make between the same two provinces. This can be combined
    with a regular >trade route to increase profitability, but if so, the
    regular guild holdings are >detected as covert holdings, which may alert
    regents of nefarious practices.

    Now you just threw the limit on trade route to and from a province out the
    window?

    >Covert Law Holdings.
    > -Military espionage. Activating the covert law holding reveals the
    >location and movements of troops in and around the province as though
    >there were a scout troop in the province.

    O.K. that sounds ok, but I still am wondering about holding level maxes and
    number of regents that can have holding in a province. I see everyone
    wanting to create a spy network in Anuire City.

    > -Usurp loyalty. The traitorous nobles may attempt to convince
    >others to join them in their treachery. This can actually "steal" control

    I think if a province ruler didn't obey the Regent all hell would break lose.

    > -Turncoat. The traitorous nobles can throw their lot in with their
    >true master, defecting and taking their troops with them. A zero-level
    >turncoat will take one infantry or cavalry unit from the former regent's

    Since when does a province control Troops? Most are
    controlled/raised/maintained by the regent.

    I have to talk about this too:

    >COUNTER-ESPIONAGE
    >-Guilders and rogue-class lieutennants detect covert holdings as such:
    > -law: 10 / 0 / 25
    > -guild: 5 / 0 / 10
    > -temple: 15 / 10 / 20

    I feel even if inactive there should be a slight chance the regent hear
    rumors about enemy agents in the realm.

    > -if a regent spends an action, or a lieutennant responds as if to
    >
    >Home Agents cost 5 GB to set up.

    I can create a leutenant for less then this?

    >The set up period can be accomplished at a rate of 1d6 GB per domain turn
    >(season). The HA counts as a lieutennant in terms of determining how many
    >lieutennants a regent can have,

    I didn't know there was a limit.

    >Once set up, the HA requires an operating budget of 2 GB per domain turn.
    Every >combination of 1 GB and 1 RP spent beyond this basic level both
    increases the >HA's ability to detect covert holdings by 10 percent, AND
    increases the difficulty >of any Espionage actions taken against the regent
    by +2.

    This is getting more expensive then the setting up of the network.

    > -Home Agents use the following chart for their ability to detect
    >covert holdings.
    > -law: 15 / 10 / 40
    > -guild: 20 / 5 / 20
    > -temple: 25 / 15 / 30

    Ohh I see now the last chart was without a counter intel group. Got it, like it.

    >Well, that's my post. Those of you who wish may feel free to post it to
    >whatever web pages you feel appropriate.

    Something like this might work in a PBEM game. [hint, hint-Ian ;-)]

    I think my biggest worry is people abusing this system, or the DM making it
    next to impossible to get accurate, reliable, and timely info.


    Bryon

    ***********************************
    Well the Question has been answered. Kind of---

    I'm a Twirp, no longer, now I am merely a powerful nuisance. ::and the
    crowd cheers::

  2. #2
    Mark A Vandermeulen
    Guest

    Alternate Spy Network Rules--LO

    On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, Bryon Switala wrote:

    >
    > What happens when the regent that owns the land trys to rule his/her own
    > holding levels up? Or does this not effect the max level of holding,
    > because the spy network does not get gold and regency from this holding?
    >

    That's a good question, and one I didn't think of until I was working on
    the law part. For zero-level holdings, this doesn't matter, because
    zero-level holdings don't count against the number of "different" holding
    owners a province can have. It's a more interesting question if a regent
    attempts to covertly rule up a covert holding--which can be done according
    to these rules, if there is an opening. I think you could handle it in one
    of two ways: either when someone else rules up in a way that would
    conflict with the level-limits the covert holding is automatically
    revealed, or the covert holder gives up his slot and drops back down to a
    zero-level holding and remains covert. You are right: a zero-level holding
    provides no gold or RP for the holder, but still costs maintenance. A
    regent may be able to make money selling his intellegence, but that should
    be handled differently: through diplomacy or role-playing.

    >
    > >COVERT ACTIONS
    > > -Basic intellegence.
    > > -Espionage. The regent can spend 1 GB to gain an espionage action
    > >as a free activity in that province.
    >
    > Does that mean that I get an extra action over and above my thre and my
    > lieutenants one?
    >

    Yes, but at a pretty hefty price. You pay the money to set it up, and the
    maintenance, and then must pay 1 GB for every covert holding you wish to
    get espionage out of. Plus, if the victim is paying attention, its not too
    unlikely that he will detect you eventually. Then he can start feeding you
    misinformation if he wishes (this should have been mentioned in the
    Counter-espionage section).

    > > -Underground Trade Route. If a covert guild is not adjacent to
    > >other holdings, an underground trade route must be established to connect
    > >the two if anything other than information is to be passed between them.
    > >Setting up an underground trade route costs the same as a regular trade
    > >route if a roadb or river exists linking the two holdings,
    >
    > How about a sea route?
    >

    Handle it the same as above: but you still need to own the ship.

    > >If used for smuggling, the route generates half the gold that a regular
    > trade route >would make between the same two provinces. This can be combined
    > with a regular >trade route to increase profitability, but if so, the
    > regular guild holdings are >detected as covert holdings, which may alert
    > regents of nefarious practices.
    >
    > Now you just threw the limit on trade route to and from a province out the
    > window?
    >

    In effect, yes. But its not a very profitable propasition: it costs the
    same as a regular trade route, but provides only half the gold. Plus it
    draws attention to the covert holdings it operates out of, so if the
    regent is paying attention at all, it only has a limited life. I suspect
    these would turn out to be unprofitable as often as not, due to the costs
    of setting up the covert guilds necessary to run them at both ends, and
    the chances of rulers finding out about them and stamping them out are
    fairly good, esp. if they pay for a Home Agent.

    > >Covert Law Holdings.
    > > -Military espionage. Activating the covert law holding reveals the
    > >location and movements of troops in and around the province as though
    > >there were a scout troop in the province.
    >
    > O.K. that sounds ok, but I still am wondering about holding level maxes and
    > number of regents that can have holding in a province. I see everyone
    > wanting to create a spy network in Anuire City.
    >

    I would expect so! That would be a natural area to gather all kinds of
    relevant information. And remember: zero-level holdings do not count
    against the limit of how many different holders can hold in a province.

    > > -Usurp loyalty. The traitorous nobles may attempt to convince
    > >others to join them in their treachery. This can actually "steal" control
    >
    > I think if a province ruler didn't obey the Regent all hell would break lose.
    >

    That's pretty much the idea. Once revealed, the covert law pretty much
    needs to either turn coat or get squelched by the regent. At some times,
    however, this may be useful enough to make it worth the cost: say the
    covert holder needs to stop the completion of a castle being built in the
    province, but is not yet quite ready to attack yet. He has his loyal man
    (the covert law holding) go bandit and steal the money which would be used
    for the building. The bandit then prepairs to turn coat if the regent
    sends his men to find out who the bandit is.

    > > -Turncoat. The traitorous nobles can throw their lot in with their
    > >true master, defecting and taking their troops with them. A zero-level
    > >turncoat will take one infantry or cavalry unit from the former regent's
    >
    > Since when does a province control Troops? Most are
    > controlled/raised/maintained by the regent.

    True, but they still have free will. The idea is that the traitorous ruler
    used his influence and persuasion to change the loyalties of the unit's
    commanders. This probably should require a roll: 10 or better on a d20
    less the difference between the covert law level and the level of "loyal"
    law holdings in the province.

    >
    > I have to talk about this too:
    >
    > >COUNTER-ESPIONAGE
    > >-Guilders and rogue-class lieutennants detect covert holdings as such:
    > > -law: 10 / 0 / 25
    > > -guild: 5 / 0 / 10
    > > -temple: 15 / 10 / 20
    >
    > I feel even if inactive there should be a slight chance the regent hear
    > rumors about enemy agents in the realm.
    >

    Sure. Give them a small chance if you would like. But they still should
    not be as good at it as a specialist.

    > > -if a regent spends an action, or a lieutennant responds as if to
    > >
    > >Home Agents cost 5 GB to set up.
    >
    > I can create a leutenant for less then this?

    Sure. But to get the better chance to detect covert activities, you need
    to pay the dough. Any monetary arraingement between lieutennants and
    regents is solely due to role-playing, not mandated by the rules. I expect
    it would usually be a LOT less than this unless the lieutennant is a
    wizard.

    >
    > >The set up period can be accomplished at a rate of 1d6 GB per domain turn
    > >(season). The HA counts as a lieutennant in terms of determining how many
    > >lieutennants a regent can have,
    >
    > I didn't know there was a limit.

    Yes, the limit of henchmen a character can obtain based on Charisma. It
    mentions this in the Rulebook.

    >
    > >Once set up, the HA requires an operating budget of 2 GB per domain turn.
    > Every >combination of 1 GB and 1 RP spent beyond this basic level both
    > increases the >HA's ability to detect covert holdings by 10 percent, AND
    > increases the difficulty >of any Espionage actions taken against the regent
    > by +2.
    >
    > This is getting more expensive then the setting up of the network.
    >

    Well, this is just off-the-cuff stuff, and hasn't been playtested yet. If
    it makes more sense, reduce the cost to 1 gb per season. However, the Home
    Agent is able to operate in every province that the regent has holdings,
    which is a pretty wide scope. Some other ideas to tweak to help achieve
    parity: increase the penalty against other regents doing espionage in
    those provinces, allow the HA a chance to defeat assasination and intrigue
    random events, give the regent a 1RP bonus whenever his Home Agent defeats
    an important rival.

    > > -Home Agents use the following chart for their ability to detect
    > >covert holdings.
    > > -law: 15 / 10 / 40
    > > -guild: 20 / 5 / 20
    > > -temple: 25 / 15 / 30
    >
    > Ohh I see now the last chart was without a counter intel group. Got it, like it.
    >
    > >Well, that's my post. Those of you who wish may feel free to post it to
    > >whatever web pages you feel appropriate.
    >
    > Something like this might work in a PBEM game. [hint, hint-Ian ;-)]
    >
    > I think my biggest worry is people abusing this system, or the DM making it
    > next to impossible to get accurate, reliable, and timely info.
    >

    Well, that's always the problem, and you can never really know until you
    try. If anyone uses these rules in their game, I would appreciate hearing
    how it works, and what changes are recommended. Another way to gather
    information is by setting up a Bard College in your province: that way you
    have an excellent chance of getting all the regular information in your
    area, and some change to get hold of some "secrets." You can use the
    Build Monument domain action described in the Netbook for this.

    Actually, it was sort of intended for PBeM, since I recently moved away
    from a long-standing BR game and am now trying to convert it to that
    format to keep it going. That way we can get together for a table-top game
    whenever I'm back home, and we can do "normal" adventures.

    Thanks for the comments. It always helps to know what you forgot to add or
    overlooked.

    Mark VanderMeulen
    vander+@pitt.edu

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