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  1. #21
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Ming I not to be picky in exchange but . .

    It (the 2nd ed PHB) stated that there "were" 5 branches of elves (not optional) but that players were assumed to be the most common one (descriptive) and that players could choose to play a different branch of elf with the DM's permission (optional).

    So - not optional - 5 types of elves (essentially as NPC/monsters).
    Optional - players could play an elf of other the high elf with DM's permission.

    So I guess it depends on how you are looking at it. Elves as a playable race or elves as a race in totem.

    And yes I think it is time to agree to disagree with how much 'detail' is needed in description, since it is purely a personal matter with how much a specific individual needs to be satisfied.
    Duane Eggert

  2. #22
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Geeman:

    Reading your ideas about elves, immortality, spirits vs. souls, and the gods, I had an idea that I thought I'd throw out here.

    Though elves cannot be clerics, what if those who do admire or even devote themselves to gods become divine servants of a different sort, more akin to Outsiders than mortal clerics? Since they have spirits of their own, might not the rules for spirits then more easily apply to them, rather than treating them as soulless and spiritless?

    One could even create a Divine Servant class for the elves if so inclined.

    One of the primary differences from clerics would be (based off of your ideas) that they are granted static spell-like abilities rather than recieving spells each day, much more like bloodlines...the difference being that the Divine Servant is granted his powers directly through service to his patron deity.

    Anyways, just a an idea playing off of yours, leaving room for some friendlier yet still special relationships between elves and the gods...

    Osprey

  3. #23
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 08:31 AM 3/10/2004 +0100, Ming I wrote:



    >The worshipping the neighbor`s dog analogy had tears streaming from my

    >eyes. Thank you!

    >

    >I had a Middle Earth website that discussed Elven immortality but now I

    >can`t find the link. It was really good too, and hit on a number of

    >points similar to those you made in your post. You also have a ton of

    >really cool ideas. If you keep writing them, I`ll keep reading them. Deal?



    Glad you enjoyed it and thanks for the kind words. From time to time it`s

    nice to be reminded that more than the usual pack of malcontents are

    reading posts around here. ;)



    Gary

  4. #24
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 12:48 AM 3/11/2004 +0100, Osprey wrote:



    >Reading your ideas about elves, immortality, spirits vs. souls, and the

    >gods, I had an idea that I thought I`d throw out here.

    >

    >Though elves cannot be clerics, what if those who do admire or even devote

    >themselves to gods become divine servants of a different sort, more akin

    >to Outsiders than mortal clerics? Since they have spirits of their own,

    >might not the rules for spirits then more easily apply to them, rather

    >than treating them as soulless and spiritless?

    >

    >One could even create a Divine Servant class for the elves if so inclined.

    >

    > One of the primary differences from clerics would be (based off of your

    > ideas) that they are granted static spell-like abilities rather than

    > recieving spells each day, much more like bloodlines...the difference

    > being that the Divine Servant is granted his powers directly through

    > service to his patron deity.



    Hm. That`s interesting. Like anything it depends on the execution, of

    course. Off the cuff, I`m inclined towards saying it should be a prestige

    class (since that appears to be the direction I`m going for portraying the

    celebrants of various "cults of Cerilia") that has those spell like

    abilities rather than spells, or maybe it should have a spell list but that

    spell list should be carefully defined so as to not impinge on more

    traditionally priestly spells.



    Gary

  5. #25
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    Originally posted by Ming I@Mar 10 2004, 09:52 PM
    Oh Prospero, what am I going to do with you?
    Funny, I was wondering what I was going to do with you B)

    Re: Elves/Gods

    Yeah, I guess we're done with that. Just let me say that I recognize "trends" in setting/race design, but I disagree with "norms". Far too restrictive.

    Re: Classes

    "Roleplaying issues" - Your character's history, how they behave, their beliefs system, personal quirks, etc.

    "Mechanics issues" - Fighters have d10 hit dice, have these class skills, gain these feats, etc.

    Other than the uniqueness each player brings to each character (Roleplaying issues), clerics have very few defining characteristics (mechanics issues).

    More clear?
    I could die, or the king could die, or the horse could learn to sing . . .

  6. #26
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    Jumping in a bit late here, but here are my answers to these questions, not necessarily official, but hopefully useful...


    1. Why do Cerilian Elves have no deities?

    Quite simply, the elves have been around as long as the human deities, and are rumoured to have been created by the same process. To the elves, the human deities are simply powerful immortals and although they respect them, they don't see the need in worshipping them.
    As for why the elves don't have their own creation myths, well as BR elves are so bloody arrogant, I imagine that they believe themselves to be gods, at least when compared to humans, goblins and other "lesser" races.


    2. Why are there no more than 120-140 true mages?

    That should read 120-140 blooded mages. This doesn't apply to elves and other races capable of casting true magic without a bloodline. This is primarily a throwback to 2E where humans were single classed. Given there were only around 2 thousand or so blooded scions in Cerilia, then only a small percentage of that number were mages. Also magic is not a common art and requires a lot of training. In most realms, this equates to a lot of money, and thus only the nobility and the upper classes could afford to train their sons and daughters in the magical arts. In Anuire this might be training at the college of sorcery, in other lands an apprentiship with a wizard.


    3. Why, if a true mage were to specialize in the schools of illusion or divination, does she lose access to all other schools instead of just one?

    Illusion (seeming) and divination (perception) magic draw on the shadow world to power them, not the mebhaighl of Aebrynis, so if a true wizard specialises in there schools, they blind themselves to the rest of magic and may only draw on magic sourced from the SW. This is, of course, only my explaination of this. My idea is that originally human magic always drew on the SW to power it, but until Azrai showed The Lost how, humans were never able to draw on its true power. Later, when humans travelled to Cerilia they learnt a new kind of magic, one that drew on Mebhaighl to power it, but much of the underlying nature of human magic is still drawn from the teachings of the first magicians who tapped the SW...


    4. What are the effects of immortality in the Birthright setting?

    Not sure what you mean here? I guess much the same effect as in other settings. An immortal is particularly good at not dying...


    5. Why can realm magic spells be learned at a lower level than the spells that they should be augmentations of? For example Transport Troops requires a Source of 5 and a Character Level of 3. Now this is a majorly augmented version of Teleport (which would require the caster to be 9th level), doesn't making the level higher make more sense

    Realm magic does not equal standard magic, no matter the resemblance between the realm spells and some common, garden varity spell. A realm spell's power is determined by its required source holding and the amount of RP and GB needed to power it, not its caster level (although this is also of some importance)...

    Making the levels of spells higher robs the wizard characters of much of their power and makes little sense, unless you have some great desire to see each spell linked in with a common spell...


    6. Why do realm spells require so much time and expense when a lot of their effects could be duplicated by casting "normal" spells a number of times, and/or in conjunction with metamagic feats?

    Realm spells are meant to be used as part of a domain level game, not in round by round combat. Certainly, there is nothing to stop a wizard from casting hundreds of "normal" spells to get the same effect, but why bother when you can just call in a regent wizard who can cast 1 single realm spell, and then still turn up the next day and cast the "normal spells" as well. Also realm spells effect entire provinces, or mutiple provinces and do things "normal" spell cannot.


    7. Is there anything stopping Elves from researching the entire divine spell-list such that they have access to all spells?

    The DM.
    Let me claim your Birthright!!

  7. #27
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Hm. That`s interesting. Like anything it depends on the execution, of
    course. Off the cuff, I`m inclined towards saying it should be a prestige
    class (since that appears to be the direction I`m going for portraying the
    celebrants of various "cults of Cerilia") that has those spell like
    abilities rather than spells, or maybe it should have a spell list but that
    spell list should be carefully defined so as to not impinge on more
    traditionally priestly spells.

    Gary
    I would think that in the case of elves, this sort of thing would be on an individual basis rather than in a cult organization, for 2 reasons:
    1. Elves don't allow prosyletizing in their domains, so it's really hard for them to form groups based on any sort of religious ideas.
    2. Elves devoting themselves to the service of a deity would be an exceptionally rare occurence in general. In other words, an anomoly.

    The only reason I suggested it at all is because elves are immortal, so over the past 2000 years, there might actually have accumulated a handful of them playing such a role. But as they would be serving different deities, I doubt they'd be any kind of organized group.

    As for spell lists - if we stick to the idea that a soul is necessary for channeling divine magic, then I'd say stick to special powers/spell-like abilities. The static nature of these powers seems appropriate for the immortal Sidhelien, especially as it seems to be the norm for spirits and Outsiders, the officially recognized forms of divine servants.

    As a [prestige] class, we could imagine that reaching the peak of it (20th level for a normal class, 10th for a prestige class) might involve transcendance, at which point the elven servant's devotion transforms them into an Outsider (much like the Monk). For an elf, this would be a radical (and probably traumatic) transformation as their ties to the mebhaighal are replaced by divine energies. They would truly cease to be elves in any normal sense, but would now be free to travel the Shadow Realm or their god's realm without their lifeforce slipping away from them...

  8. #28
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    I haven;t read the entire thread... (too long)

    But I wanted to point out some facts (from TSR books) regarding elves and their lack of gods...

    According to the "Blood Spawn" book, the elves area actually the product of the splitting of the One world into the Shadow World and the Daylight World. There was a race in the one world called Sie and when the worlds were split, the Sidhe and the Seelie faeries were created and populated the two worlds. According to the book, when a Sidhe dies, a Seelie faerie dies as well and vice versa. It is also mentioned that the elves and the Seelie have long forgotten this story and only the Seelie Queen (the only surviving Sie) knows the story... The Sie had both divine and arcane magic and both forms of magic were based in the handling of mebhaighl and not in prayers or spell memorization. (the book seems to indicate that the elven wizards are all sorcerors, in the 3rd edition concept of the word) When the split occurred, the Seelie retained the control of divine magic and the Sidhe of arcane magic and the two races lost access to the other part of magic. The Sidhe were bound to the land (possibly explaining their land-associated abilities... woodland stride...) and the Seelie gained the power to shape the land (which in terms of the Shadow World is the Seeming and they can shape it with their wills)... the book goes on to describe other interesting stuff about the relationship between the two races... (page27)

    Elsewhere in TSR material, it is mentioned that the elves are the spawn of "night and chaos". If you had read the mythological books of Hesiod, the gods themselves (Jupiter etc) were children of such vague concepts such as the Night.. What I am saying is that the Sie, apparently, were made of the same stuff that the gods were made in Cerilia... (the original gods) and so they could not understand that they should worship any god...

  9. #29
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    OMG A_dark, finally someone with an answer that comes from an official book! I now officially love you forever (hopefully you're okay with that. )

    This is EXACTLY what I've been looking for (though it's weird that it had to come from one of the last books in the line...). From this description it sounds like those of elven blood would fit perfectly into a spell point system, and that other characters would fit more into the wizardly and priestly roles that most D&Ders are familiar with. It also hints that the division between arcane spellcasters and divine ones is mostly artificial (since the sie used both). Though I'm still perplexed at how an elven ranger could come to be under this idea (maybe they really shouldn't have spells in Cerilia), I am now bursting with tons of new ideas.

    Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou A_dark!!!

  10. #30
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    I think rangers were magic-users in 2e... Although I can't be sure, since that brat has "borrowed" my books for what, 10 months now?! Gonna kill it, fetch my books, then return to the community with much relief and joy! Just KIDding, people, but these can be nothing less but happy thoughts for me...

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