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  1. #1
    Harri Kemppainen
    Guest

    Using BR Adventures for a norma

    On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, Glenn Robb wrote:

    > I still don't think that the players should act like Captain Kirk, although
    > Sepsis' arguments are sound. Normal adventures can't support that kind of level
    [huge cut]

    At the bottom line player regents are supreme rulers of country. It's not
    what they should or shouldn't do. If regent want's to go adventuring there
    is nobody to tell him no, except GM. Another point is that how GM presents
    the world etc. It might make adventuring impossible, but after all this is
    fantasy roleplaying, not a historical simulation.


    - ---
    Harri Kemppainen cshake@kastanja.uta.fi
    Java-programmer Attila B288b
    Information Studies, University of Tampere +358 3 215 7632

  2. #2
    John Rickards
    Guest

    Using BR Adventures for a norma

    There are other real-life and fictional examples. Henry V, for
    example, spent much of his youth in bars (if you believe the play)
    and much of his reign fighting wars in France.
    Many Roman emperors spent a great deal of time away from home in one
    war or another, trusting the rule of the Empire to regional governors
    or the Roman Senate (although my memory for the details is sketchy.
    It's been an awfully long time since I did history at school).
    In classical fiction, people like Odysseus, who was the ruler of one
    of the Greek states spent some time at Troy before spending 10 years
    making his way home through all sorts of trouble. All the time, his
    wife ruled for him.
    And let's not forget Machiavelli's observation that:

    "The only sound, sure and enduring methods of defence
    are those based on your own actions and prowess."

    John Rickards


    "Once I was a lamb, playing in a green field. Then
    the wolves came. Now I am an eagle and I fly in a
    different universe."
    "And now you kill the lambs," whispered Dardalion.
    "No, priest. No one pays for lambs."
    - David Gemmel, Waylander

  3. #3

    Using BR Adventures for a norma

    At 12:42 PM 10/5/97 -0600, Glenn Robb(GLENNROBB@prodigy.net)wrote:
    >
    > Anyway, back to the subject of using BR adventures this way. If I had
    the
    >Birthright Setting, I would not allow my PCs to be "Captain Kirk." That is,
    >Regents who travel all over Creation battling evil, leaving others to do
    the work
    >of ruling their provinces for them. The incidence of trechery is too
    great. But
    >this is the problem in the Birthright Adventures.
    >

    Not so much a problem, just the nature of the beast. BR is a setting where
    PC Regents can't afford to do too much of one thing, and not enough of the
    other(the "things" being Domain administration, and real-world actions). A
    PC must find a balance, or they risk losing their nation to someone who
    steps in. Either a Lt. who undermines their rule, or a valiant Knight who
    rescues the populace all the time. Although you can still have a great
    campaign with the PCs all being Lts. in service of a Regent, or perhaps
    different Regents. But you shouldn't miss out on the Domain stuff, IMC my
    PCs are all Regents in the same country but only one of them is the
    nation's Ruler(she controls the LHs of the country). Its true Regents don't
    have the "freedom" afforded non-royals, but again thats part of their role.


    Sepsis, richt@metrolink.net (ICQ:3777956)

    "War is a matter of vital importance to the State;
    the province of life or death;
    the road to survival or ruin.
    It is mandatory that it be thoroughly studied."
    -Sun Tzu,(The Art of War)-

    BR Netbook: http://webpages.metrolink.net/~veleda/birth.html

  4. #4
    Ed Stark
    Guest

    Using BR Adventures for a norma

    At 12:42 PM 10/5/97 -0600, you wrote:
    >"normal" as in the PCs are special agents of a regent.
    >
    > Okay, think an introduction is in order. My name is Elton Robb and
    I'm a
    >newbie to this list, but can get around mailing lists like a pro. I am
    what you
    >call a "budding liberal Gamemaster." And I enjoy using the adventures
    from other
    >worlds in my campaigns.
    >
    > Anyway, back to the subject of using BR adventures this way. If I had
    the
    >Birthright Setting, I would not allow my PCs to be "Captain Kirk." That is,
    >Regents who travel all over Creation battling evil, leaving others to do
    the work
    >of ruling their provinces for them. The incidence of trechery is too
    great. But
    >this is the problem in the Birthright Adventures.
    >
    > I have found a way to get around this. Especially in the first adventure
    >"Sword and Crown." The PCs are the agents of the Local lord, Earl, or
    Baron or
    >what have you. They have the ear of the Regent, but act as retainers on
    hand for
    >dangerous (re: adventurous) missions. Thus the PCs would have the greatest
    >amount of freedom as well as have the privledge of hob-nobbing with Anuire's
    >Elite.
    >
    > What do you think of this approach?
    >

    I like it very much. I've always been more comfortable having only a few
    (if any) regent PCs in my around-the-office games and playtests. However,
    the game is built to handle everyone being a regent who wants to--as long
    as the DM can handle it as well.

    Ed Stark
    Game Designer, Wizards of the Coast/TSR Division
    Asst. Brand Manager, BIRTHRIGHT/GREYHAWK/MARVEL Group
    TSR Website: http://www.tsrinc.com

  5. #5
    Neil Barnes
    Guest

    Using BR Adventures for a norma

    Elton Robb wrote:
    > Anyway, back to the subject of using BR adventures this way. If I had the
    > Birthright Setting, I would not allow my PCs to be "Captain Kirk." That is,
    > Regents who travel all over Creation battling evil,
    > leaving others to do the work of ruling their provinces for them. The
    > incidence of trechery is too great. But
    > this is the problem in the Birthright Adventures.
    >
    > I have found a way to get around this. Especially in the first adventure
    > "Sword and Crown." The PCs are the agents of the Local lord, Earl,
    > or Baron or what have you. They have the ear of the Regent, but act
    > as retainers on hand for dangerous (re: adventurous) missions. Thus
    > the PCs would have the greatest amount of freedom as well as have the
    > privledge of hob-nobbing with Anuire's Elite.

    As a player I've found that the most interesting part of the game to me is
    the running of a country - the domain turn stuff, but more importantly the
    diplomacy which makes the roleplaying much more interesting - there's more
    at stake when you meet other regents.

    Example: My character, Aubrae Rosesone worries about her older brother,
    who seems oblivious to the fact that as a regent he needs to get married
    and secure both alliances and produce an heir to secure the succession, so
    she's busy approaching various people behind his back. At the same time
    she's torn between the prospect of marrying for love or political
    advantage.

    Or: As regent of Ilien trying to support the (weak) ruler of Medoere
    without risking my own neck.

    It's the politics that makes Bvirthright distinct from a better written
    version of the Realms or Greyhawk, and by falling back to the traditional
    patron sending people on adventures paradigm you loose a lot of the
    flavour.

    However you end up with a campaign where players spend much less time
    acting as a coherent group, instead being a loose group of friends who
    meet at noble weddings, funerals and the like. It's a different sort of
    game.

    What's the list's feelings on the subject?

    neil

    ps I'd just like to express my awe at the person who mentioned earlier
    that they run a campaign where the province rulers are scattered all over
    Cerillia. Wow!

  6. #6
    James Abbiati
    Guest

    Using BR Adventures for a norma

    Hey all,

    Having just started BR, I see first level characters hopping from dungeons to the
    dias as a little awkward. I use the term "dungeon" as any adventure a normal AD&D
    character would go on, but a Baron of a Realm probably would not. I am not the DM
    for this campaign, but he is experiencing the same feelings. When and if I start
    another campaign, I would run the characters as normal AD&D characters for the first
    7 or 8 levels. Then, as the characters have built up reputations and may be tiring
    of adventureing, I would open up the whole "Regent" aspect of the game. The first 7
    or 8 levels would be linked in terms of getting characters built up, and having them
    aquire their first holdings. That way, the adventures after level 7 or 8 would be
    less frequent, and could center more around the diplomacy aspect, as apposed to
    having realm leaders dungeon delving.

    Jim Abbiati

  7. #7
    Brian Stoner
    Guest

    Using BR Adventures for a norma

    I think another possibility is cultural pressure. Perhaps, unlike earth
    and other places, it expected by the culture that rulers will go
    adventuring. That is, they will take an active roll in dealing with
    dangers and threats. Of course not everyone lives up to this, and it's
    not always expected. but it is a strong enough idea that most
    characters will adventure. It is cultural, if not practical. Of course
    actually developing an adventure that several rulers will all go on
    together is another matter...

    Brian

    James Abbiati wrote:

    > I think that is true in the "real world". But there is a problem for
    > characters
    > who still wish to go out and adventure in "typical" dungeons. I don't
    > think
    > King Tut was out adventureing as a "boy ruler". I see the answer lying
    > in 2
    > areas. First, the types of adventures change dramatically, and are
    > limited to
    > what types of adventures would make sense for a Ruler to go on.
    > Political
    > envoys, War, etc. The second answer is to delay the assention to the
    > "throne"
    > until the characters have had a chance to go on the "typical"
    > adventure.
    >
    > The second area would lend well to having a set of rules for the
    > "realm rulers"
    > that are not specific to Birthright, but could be used to breath new
    > life in
    > other campaigns, such as Greyhawk and The Forgotten Realms. In other
    > words,
    > make a book similar to "Skills and Powers" that is a rules suppliment
    > for using
    > "holdings" and such in other worlds.
    >
    > Jim Abbiati
    >
    > Bill Seurer wrote:
    >
    > > Actually, I think that BirthRight is correct in handling rulers.
    > Rulers
    > > are not those with the highest "level", but those who have the
    > Divine
    > > Right to be the ruler. In the "real world" the kings and such went
    > > around claiming to have this right, but in BR they literally do have
    > the
    > > Divine Right to be king. There's nothing special about 6th-8th
    > level
    > > characters that suddenly they can become kings.
    > >
    > > Now that's not to say that some high level thug isn't going to come
    > > along, knock off the rightful ruler, and take over.
    > >
    > > - Bill Seurer ID Tools and Compiler Development IBM Rochester,
    > MN
    > > Business: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com Home:
    > BillSeurer@aol.com
    > > [work page]
    > > Home page: http://members.aol.com/BillSeurer/
    > >
    > >
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    > the line
    > > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
    >
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    > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
    > line
    >

  8. #8
    Bill Seurer
    Guest

    Using BR Adventures for a norma

    > Excerpts from mail: 7-Oct-97 birthright-digest V1996 #316
    > birthright-digest@lists. (32732)

    > I think another possibility is cultural pressure. Perhaps, unlike
    > earth
    > and other places, it expected by the culture that rulers will go
    > adventuring. That is, they will take an active roll in dealing
    > with
    > dangers and threats. Of course not everyone lives up to this, and
    > it's
    > not always expected. but it is a strong enough idea that most
    > characters will adventure. It is cultural, if not practical. Of
    > course
    > actually developing an adventure that several rulers will all go
    > on
    > together is another matter...

    It is also a staple of the fantasy genre in literature that the
    kings/court wizards/thieve's guild leaders run off on adventures. Think
    of the Conan books, the books set in Krondor, even the Lord of the
    Rings. And it's not without example in the real world either.


    - - Bill Seurer ID Tools and Compiler Development IBM Rochester, MN
    Business: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com Home: BillSeurer@aol.com
    [work page]
    Home page: http://members.aol.com/BillSeurer/

  9. #9

    Using BR Adventures for a norma

    At 12:14 PM 10/7/97 -0700, Brian Stoner(bstoner@efn.org)wrote:
    >
    >I think another possibility is cultural pressure. Perhaps, unlike earth
    >and other places, it expected by the culture that rulers will go
    >adventuring. That is, they will take an active roll in dealing with
    >dangers and threats. Of course not everyone lives up to this, and it's
    >not always expected. but it is a strong enough idea that most
    >characters will adventure. It is cultural, if not practical. Of course
    >actually developing an adventure that several rulers will all go on
    >together is another matter...
    >

    Actually there are examples of true-life rulers, in the past, who were very
    active outside of their palaces. Although many were sit-at-home rulers.
    Still it would be better to compare BR Regents with mythical rulers from
    our world. Most of them took the time to get off their thrones and handle
    maurading monsters, bandits, witches, or even go on a quest or two. Few, if
    any, great mythical rulers would have allowed thier lackys to handle all of
    these problems. It was truley an era of "hands-on" rulership. Don't compare
    rulers and goverments of *today* with the rulers, and goverments, of BR.
    Its not the same. IN BR Regents have the "birthright" to be leaders but
    they must constantly prove this to those around them, and to those they rule.


    Sepsis, richt@metrolink.net (ICQ:3777956)

    "War is a matter of vital importance to the State;
    the province of life or death;
    the road to survival or ruin.
    It is mandatory that it be thoroughly studied."
    -Sun Tzu,(The Art of War)-

    BR Netbook: http://webpages.metrolink.net/~veleda/birth.html

  10. #10
    James Abbiati
    Guest

    Using BR Adventures for a norma

    > It is also a staple of the fantasy genre in literature that the
    > kings/court wizards/thieve's guild leaders run off on adventures. Think
    > of the Conan books, the books set in Krondor, even the Lord of the
    > Rings. And it's not without example in the real world either.

    Actually, in the Lord of the Rings, none of the established rulers went on the
    adventure. Aragorn was "becomming" the king, but he wasn't yet.

    >
    >
    > - Bill Seurer ID Tools and Compiler Development IBM Rochester, MN
    > Business: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com Home: BillSeurer@aol.com
    > [work page]
    > Home page: http://members.aol.com/BillSeurer/
    >
    > ************************************************** *************************
    > >

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