Polytheism in BR

[Osprey]

I find myself agreeing with Kenneth on most points here. For one, in the overall scheme of things, I think inter-faith temples might exist in some places where there is a close alliance and respect for those deities not represented by the dominant temple/regent. In a way, it's a shame there's no mechanic to represent such a "sub-realm" level dynamic, as it adds a really valuable element of sophistication and realism to an otherwise childishly simple picture (here I'm referring to the standard domain level temple holding view, as set up in RoE etc.). As a DM, I might allow that well-accepted 'lesser' sects, such as Neserians in a Haelyn-dominated province, would have an easier time establishing some real political clout (gaining actual holding levels under a regent), at least in the beginning. By the same token, though, I'd expect that such an action would be least likely from that sect as it would upset the friendship and working relationship between the 2 sects, and might cause a lot of bad blood without some careful diplomacy first smoothing the way.

I definitely agree that doctrine is flexible and can definitely be manipulated a great deal to fit a desired end. Any real-world scholar of religious history will probably back this up 110%!

Here is a real-world historical example that I believe to be a fairly accurate depiction of this principle in its typical form:

Consider the Catholic Church as it expanded with the Roman Empire, and later continued the same patterns of conversion almost up to the present day. As missionaries were sent into pagan lands, they preached of the dominance of the One True God, while slowly weaving the local pagan deities into the church's ever-growing collection of saints. Each saint was the patron of something - healing, a craft, animals, fertility, etc. Many of these saints were in fact direct conversions of pagan deities, with the same spheres of influence as the original deities, but now conveniently subordinate to the One True God. This allowed the converted populations to keep worshipping the same gods they had always worshipped, but now with a new understanding of a single dominant god. As time passes and new generations are born and preached to, the native pagan deities are ascribed diminishing status, until at some point they are described as saints, humans who rose to holy favor and status through good works, divine favor, or some miraculous event. Complete histories are created, often weaving in elements of the original pagan mythology, that give these figures legitimacy in the eyes of the people. If there are even a few seeds of truth to a mostly-fabricated story, it lends incredible power in convincing the populace of its legitimacy.

Throw into this mix the conversion of political leaders and their subsequent influence in converting their subjects, and the process is greatly speeded up (Catholicism becomes the offical state religion), by fair means or foul...

Now for those who are still awake , the parallels and possibilities for the BR world are tremendous. Granted the monotheistic example above is a bit extreme for polytheistic Cerilia, but the principles of an absorbent doctrine remain fairly constant. While in the real world this process would occur over multiple generations, in BR blooded regents can spend RP to hasten the process and massively influence the people. Because of this, I believe that while the majority of the populace will retain its basic belief in the pantheon as a whole, their actual faith, loyalties, and understanding of theology (i.e., the way they actually view/interpret the pantheon and their roles) will vary a great deal depending on who is preaching and how persuasive they are. A temple regent who really focuses their efforts on a province, using their personal skills (Lead, P/Oratory, Diplomacy, K/Religion), talented preachers and aids, their divine power (RP), and political influence (temple levels + support of the law/provincial regent, in a best-case scenario), could sway the beliefs of the populace in a remarkably short amount of time - a month or a season, even. I think this takes into account the accelerated rate of change that blooded regents are capable of enacting, especially when unopposed by other blooded regents.

So I don't think the beliefs of the populace are necessarily as stable as might be believed, because blooded regents have so much power to influence them. Whether or not those regents actually try to do so depends on the regents themselves, and here is where the great diversity of doctrines should be evident in Cerilia. Any study of Cerilian regents and their doctrines should show just how fractured and diverse theology has become, despite the universal acknowledgement of a single pantheon's existence. But the existence of the same gods (and I'm only talking about the standard pantheon, not the Cold Rider or other cults) seems to be about the only thing everyone can agree on.

I imagine the most zealous and extreme temple regents might very well be exclusive in their theology, preaching that their deity is really the only one worth worshipping. They might spend many a sermon blasting the reverence of the other deities while extolling the virtues of their own, coming up with ways that their patron can serve all of the spiritual needs of the people. I'm hesitant to use examples here, as I am not positive about all of the details of the different priest regents in the official material, but I have the distinct impression that zealots do exist, and more than one priest believes that the people don't really need the rest of the pantheon at all. In a sense, these would be the ones pushing for a more monothesitic model. On the other extreme you'd have the liberal pantheists and mystics preaching for unification of the pantheon, that every deity has an important role to play in the world, even the evil gods like Kreisha and Belinik! At the least they serve as foils, temptors, or adversaries who test the faithful and remind them of the price of depravity and the real threat of falling into evil (sin).

The majority of temples and their regents fall somewhere betwen these two poles, of course, and Kenneth gave some very excellent examples of a few of these, as well as a doctrine that might combine the aspects of Haelyn and Sera in a plausible theology.

But never underestimate the attractiveness of the extremes...there will always be zealots and extremists goading the masses into exclusive worship (plenty of RW examples for this&#33, and there will always be those who believe that everything has its place (the "universalists," for lack of a better term), and I think these make for excellent elements for the BR world, not to mention excellent sources of headaches for PC regents...heh heh heh...

The bottom line is that the temples and their doctrines reflect the overall political state of Cerilia: fractured, diverse, sometimes allied, sometimes at odds, and overall quite a jumbled, chaotic mess. In other words, nigh-endless story and adventure possiblities in a rich setting. And this is for me perhaps the greatest appeal of the Birthright setting.

Osprey

[Prospero]

Originally posted by kgauck@Mar 9 2004, 09:20 AM
Oh, its possible, and it might finally be time for me to devise a doctrine, so here goes.

I disagree with your example. I think everything you mention could be doctrinal concerns and differences between Sarimite and Haelynite temples. To clarify: not just between the different gods' temple, but between different temples within the worship of the same god,also. Perhaps some Sarimites concern themselves more with "the fair deal" than "the maximum profit", much like how worshippers of Cuiraecen are split.

I also disagree with your views on allied gods. I don't think that the gods being allies means there are priests of the allied faiths within a temple. I think the allied gods means that priests of the allied faiths will be welcomed a little more openly, perhaps trusted a little more, than the enemy gods. They might be called in to assist the temple with something, or even called in to give an extra sermon one day.

Temples being multitheistic is such a huge thing, I think that it would have been mentioned somewhere in the rules if it existed. Now, if you want to change this and add it in in your own games, that's your call, and good luck. But I disagree, and I would personally want to stick with the rules and descriptions as laid out, how I interpret them.

[kgauck]

But what are we to do with these extreamists? Do such people come together

under a like-minded templar and form a sect? Are they just nusiance priests

who are found in every temple but cause friction among the cooperating

faiths? What is the nature of the problem they will present to PC rulers?



We might also consider the scope of their extreamism. Are they so absolute

in their devotion to one god that they are hostile to other faiths and they

followers? What impact would this have in growing a faith? Perhaps

Haelyn`s Absolutist Crusaders could easily establish a level one holding in

several provinces, but that level 2 and level 3 might be hard to come by.

Especially if the competing faith is Haelyn`s Happy Paternalism (everyone

welcome!).



Extreamists might also come in other varieties. Suppose that there is a

cleavage in Sarimie`s temples between those who profess skill, luck, and

wealth, so that I could find extreamists for the aspect of luck who reject

skill and wealth in favor of a fatalistsic outlook with the motto "its all a

crap shoot". He might be tolerated by most priests of Sera, but not by the

extreamists of wealth, who are the apologists of greed. they regard the

doctrine of the other as a heresy, leading devotees of Sera into useless

contemplations of luck when they should be obsessing over money. These

types could make life lots of "fun" for a PC temple ruler of Sera.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Sthenelos]

We could also take examples from pre-christian polytheism; Rome had temples to a plethora of divinities, but those of the roman religion came under the authority of the office of the Pontifex Maximus (the Pope still holds it to this day). The temple opposition in Rome might rather have been Religio Romana/Mythraism than one for each separate divinity if it were put in BR gameterms. I know too little of the Kemetic religion or of the Hellenes, to establish a rule, but the religious establishment in Athens could probably translate at one time roughly as Parthenon (with Athena as a dominant Olympian)/Garden(Atheistic Epicurians)/other philosophies probably named by their headquarters in the city.

Or we could go so far as assume that the pantheon as described is Anuireo-centric, and most of the divinities actually represent differing pantheons, each as their probable head.

On a side note, in a case where my previous proposition is considered irrelevant, I'd say that unless they have been heavily influnced by abrahamic religious thought, there will be shrines to all the gods in many towns and all provincial capitals, certainly up to the small temple (not holding, but actual building) in a principality's capital city.

[Prospero]

Originally posted by kgauck@Mar 9 2004, 04:50 PM
But what are we to do with these extreamists? Do such people come together under a like-minded templar and form a sect?

What extremists are you referring to?

Allow me to spell out my views a little more clearly. These following two paragraphs refer to Anuireans in the Empire, not outside the Empire (where priorities are going to be different).

Laypeople likely pay homage to multiple gods; they may even attend multiple temples, to worship them. At the very least, they respect them all as divine. I imagine your typical Anuirean peasant would venerate Haelyn as the patron of the Empire and Celestial King, although he would almost certainly respect the other gods - perhaps making an offering or tithing on their holy day, perhaps occasionally attending a service by one of those gods' priests.

In areas where non-Haelynite faiths are dominant, the Haelynite churches are present, just politically minimized. They hold a position of distant respect and veneration, but other temples have managed to seize most of the political influence and power. In this case, I could see the previous example being reversed - the people attending other temples most frequently, while only attending a Haelynite shrine on Haelyn's holy days.

With priests, a priest has to serve only one god. Now, some may do this out of extremism (Haelyn is the best! All other gods exist only to serve his will&#33, some out of regionalism (Haelyn is the patron of our Empire. I serve him as my family has always served him.), some out of a milder personal belief (Yes, I acknowledge Haelyn as the Lawmaker, but I feel that Avanalae's role as a bringer of reason is more important - so I serve her.)

Some priests may pay homage to all gods, or to a select few. However, they became a priest to serve their god of choice, and so they owe their primary allegiance to that god. All the priests in that temple are going to be of that faith. Now, outside priests may occasionally be brought in (A Sarimite could be paid a stipend to monitor contracts, a Cuiraecenite could be brought in to train a new group of guards, etc.), but they would be no better than associates of the temple, not full-on members. While Priests of Cuiraecen and Nesirie might be welcomed in a Haelynite temple, and encouraged to stay for a while and possibly to preach a little, they would not belong to the temple, any more than the Laermite who is given a bed for a night and politely asked to move on the next morning.

Ummm . . . that's it for now . . .

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Prospero" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 2:23 PM





> What extremists are you referring to?



I was following Osprey`s post.



On a different note, I don`t think there are "services" per se in temples.

Nothing at all like the Jewish, Christian, or Muslim approach. Certainly no

preaching. Sthenelos has mentioned the ancient temples of history, and I

take a view much more towards that model of religion in which there is a

calander of ritual that takes place, and other outside those celebrations,

people will go to temples because they have a specific problem. They seek

an omen, or anticipate a sea voyage, or want to solemnify a business deal.

That is just my view on the activities of temples.



When we talk of multi-faith temples let us not automatically think that

within one building there exist many faiths co-exiting practicing their

various rituals within sight of one another. On the contrary, I would hold

this to be the case only in special cases, normally small temples in which

affiliated gods, normally only divine family members, get a shrine on the

premises because of the issue of cost. I have every confidence that the

residents of Shadowgreen in Aerenwe want to revere Haelyn from time to time.

But given the small numbers of people in the province, its probabaly more

like a shrine near the temple of Neserie. Beyond that situation, and you

can still concieve of the Haelyn shrine as seperate from the Neserian

temple, I prefer the notion of seperate temple buildings and seperate

priesthoods whose leadership collaborate under the head of a blooded temple

ruler of one faith. So that in Aerenwe, for the most part one would see

Haelyn in his own temples, with his own priesthood, celebrating his own

rituals in their own space. However, politically, these Haelynites fall in

line with the ETN. Its at this political level of policy and

relationships - what do we think of Queen Liliene, of the Impregnable Heart,

of Storm`s Height, of Duke Jaison, of Baroness Marlae, of el-Hadid, of

Mourde Alondir, of Siele Ghoried, or this policy or that polciy where we

properly speak of temples acting in unison. Not at the character level of

street observation and particiaption. John Machin may hold to such a view,

and I will leave him to argue its virtues, but my own view is that unity of

allied temples is only a coordinated alliance of several temples, not one

master temples of combined faiths.



If you go to Stjordvik you will see a temple of Haelyn. Inside are priests

whose theology closely resembles that of the NIT. However, its politics are

a pretty stalwart support of King Varri and the Oaken Grove. Over at the

Oaken Grove there will be priests who subscribe to Holn`s Companionship and

think that those fellows over in Haelyn`s temples are pretty good guys and

we can do business with them in fighting the enemies of Stjordvik. Others

in the Oaken Grove could care less about the Haelynites. The Emerald Spire,

likewise is indifferent to Haelyn`s temple.



My concern is that all of the temples are of the pantheon are present in

most places, but how to they interact, because I know that on the realm

level, only the ones with holdings are influential at the realm level, even

though they all might be influential at the level of individual worshipers.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[geeman]

At 04:54 PM 3/9/2004 +0100, Prospero wrote:



>Temples being multitheistic is such a huge thing, I think that it would

>have been mentioned somewhere in the rules if it existed. Now, if you

>want to change this and add it in in your own games, that`s your call, and

>good luck. But I disagree, and I would personally want to stick with the

>rules and descriptions as laid out, how I interpret them.



There are several temples that are described as being multitheistic, but

that aside I think it`s important to note that when it comes to the

polytheistic nature of Cerilia and how that interacts with the temple

structure it`s important to note that... well, it doesn`t necessarily. The

temple structure is independent of the cultural aspects of the regents,

staff and participants in the standard BR domain rules, and any interaction

is purely role-playing on the part of the person playing the regent who

controls the holdings. In the same way that guild holdings are described

as taking part in one particular type of business or another, temple

holdings are merely described as being dedicated to one particular god or

another. Guild holdings, for instance, might be dedicated to gold mining,

Varsk ranching, beer brewing, or arranging daffodils into decorative

centerpieces. Whatever one wants. It can be changed at the whim of the

player or DM. Similarly, if the regent in charge of the Western Imperial

Temple of Haelyn dies and his heir takes over the new heir might decide

that the temple is now dedicated to Bobo the dog-faced boy. It doesn`t

factor into the domain level at all. The fact that the temple has the name

"Haelyn" in the title, of course, tells us what the temple is _supposed_ to

be dedicated to, but on the whole this stuff is not determined or even

influenced by the domain level mechanics.



The only domain level effect that I can think of that really specifies to

what a holding is dedicated is the rules for creating Varsk ranches based

on guild holdings to allow for regents to muster units of them. By

extension if one uses a system of specialty holdings then one is pretty

likely to run into more particular uses of holdings.



PC level mechanics, of course, are influenced by such things. But to

reiterate the domain level affects, there`s no reason to assume that in a

temple holding dedicated to Haelyn all the characters who administrate,

proselytize or participate in that temple holding are themselves dedicated

to that one god. Haelyn`s temples would very likely have things like a

shrine to his wife Neserie if for no other reason than to venerate the

god`s relationship. In fact, the omission of such a thing would probably

be seen as a little odd. Similarly, some mentioning of his son/herald

would probably be in order. Within a whole temple structure with a couple

dozen levels of holdings are possibly in the neighborhood of a few hundred

celebrants with levels in a priestly class. Not all of them need

necessarily be dedicated to the god for whom the temple is dedicated.



In the absence of an actual list of the entire staff of a holding, their

character levels and classes, I think it`s probably reasonable to assume

that there are a few clerics who have different, associated deities within

a particular temple structure, particularly if one takes into consideration

that the staff of holdings as described in the BoP aren`t even necessarily

clerics. Low level fighters and thieves also are listed among the acolytes

and clergy that staff holdings (p65.) Since not all such characters need

even be priests it seems logical that those who are not necessarily

strictly vetted.



Gary

[Birthright-L]

Kenneth Gauck said:

> Since Erik has Avani and Ruornil listed as allies...



I`m not sure if there is much of a "baby" to toss out with the "bathwater"

when one considers the religious "stat-blocks" in BoP.



Since I presume a, at least nominally, cooperative pantheon-wide "Imperial

Temple", I also have to assume at that some point there was sufficient

common ground between the priests of the different gods for this to get

off the ground. I think that Rhoubher Nichaleir might see some useful

things in Sarimie`s philosophy, even if he doesn`t see them in Temias

Coumain`s version of it.



--

John Machin

(trithemius@kallisti.net.nz)

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

[Birthright-L]

Kenneth Gauck said:

> Agreed, but I think that if we speak of loyalty, then we can speak of a

> populace as having a respect for and a loyalty to Temais Coumain and/or

> Rhobher Nichaleir. The attitudes of the people of Endier are going to be

> pretty stable regarding Sarimie and Haelyn, though the fortunes of Temais

> and Rhobher could theoretically be a roller coaster in which they are

> tossed between adulation and scorn.



Quite right, although I see the loyalty of the populace as less important

than both the loyalty of the priests and the "loyalty" of the ruler.



--

John Machin

(trithemius@kallisti.net.nz)

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

[Birthright-L]

Prospero said:

> Why would a priest of Sarimie belong to a church which pays no heed to

> the influence of luck, and which stifles unrestricted trade with laws and

> the nobility? How would a priest of Haelyn fit into a clergy which

> respects not law, but profit?



Who says that Haelyn`s priests would do this? I don`t see any emphasis on

"stifling" in what little information we have on generic Haelynic

theology. Possibly the priests of the Orthodox and Northern temples might

see the rise of a merchant class as not-so-good (I suppose that depends

how "Protestant" you see the NIT as) but this is not a fundamental of

Haelyn`s worship. There are also elements of Sarimien theology that say

that luck comes to whom it is due; i.e you `make your own fortune`. I do

not see Just Reward as being contrary to Haelyn`s teachings.



To go somewhat specific I will also point out that at times Nichaleir is

spoken of as a highly political individual, as opposed to a strictly

religious one (although this could be OIT propaganda sneaking into the

`Ruins of Empire` book); creating an inclusive rather than an exclusive

church is far more sensible from a political point of view if your society

is a pantheonistic one.



I think that religious (and political, for that matter) fanaticism is

hopelessly overstated by most BR players.



> You are, of course, free to hold whatever beliefs you like.

> But I completely disagree with your idea of multitheistic temples.



Thanks for your permission; I graciously offer you the same.



--

John Machin

(trithemius@kallisti.net.nz)

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.