Polytheism in BR

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "John Machin" <trithemius@KALLISTI.NET.NZ>

Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 7:03 PM



> The only reason why the Celestial Spell exists as a seperate

> temple is because of the political persecution of Medoere by

> Diemed and the personal charisma and status of Suris Enlien

> as Ruornil`s Prophet.



I would be tempted to add some impetus. Perhaps immediately before

Diesmaar, Rournil and his council met at some location in Medoere where

Rournil shared his secret plan of attack. After Diesmaar, the place,

possibly a grove, was taken to be sacred to Ruornil. Soon a school was

erected nearby and the school was given protection of the site. Today the

place is a kind of university of esoteric teaching and research into the

secrets of the universe, and the care and protection of secret knowledge.

As such there are, as you say, "larger than normal numbers of Ruornil`s

priests in the South Coast." I just went so far as to explain why that

might be.



Indeed I would not be surprised if there were sacred spots to other gods in

that neighborhood as well. We know about Haelyn`s location in Diemed. Some

may be off the cost, like Nesirie`s, so there is some flexibility here.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Birthright-L]

Kenneth Gauck said:

> I would be tempted to add some impetus. Perhaps immediately before

> Diesmaar, Rournil and his council met at some location in Medoere where

> Rournil shared his secret plan of attack. After Diesmaar, the place,

> possibly a grove, was taken to be sacred to Ruornil. Soon a school was

> erected nearby and the school was given protection of the site. Today the

> place is a kind of university of esoteric teaching and research into the

> secrets of the universe, and the care and protection of secret knowledge.

> As such there are, as you say, "larger than normal numbers of Ruornil`s

> priests in the South Coast." I just went so far as to explain why that

> might be.



Exactly, but what transforms this potential from a neat piece of

background colour into a seperate temple hierarchy was the Prophet, at

least [I]n [M]y [C]erilia.



--

John Machin

(trithemius@kallisti.net.nz)

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

[Birthright-L]

Fearless_Leader said:

> While I agree with some of what you`ve said on this subject, I think you

> misunderstood what I meant. The fact of the matter is that there will be

> a group of hardcore fanatics who believe that Haelyn (or some of the

> other gods for that matter) is the only god worthy of worship. They

> don`t deny the other gods existance for certain, but these individuals

> will find that the other gods in the pantheon should not be worshipped by

> any "true blooded Anuirean," arguing, among other things, that

> from Haelyn`s tenents come civilization and that those that do not follow

> these tenets are little better than barbarians. These people are the

> kinds of regents that are most likely to expel merchants and priests of

> other faiths, believing that they subvert the word of the Book of Laws

> with their ideas of the middle class, merchant dominated societies, and

> an end to serfdom. These people are most likely to be found in the more

> reactionary elements of the OIT, a few other temples (the NIT sticks out

> in my mind), and among certain nobility.



This to my mind is only interesting as an example of chauvinism. Useful as

an example of people who are irrational and abnormal.



I believe that I will leave it to Kenneth to discuss the Northern Imperial

Temple, since the Taelshore is his pet project.



> On the generic priest idea, I have to say I don`t agree at all. I`ve

> always seen the priests and the pantheon constantly competing against one

> another. In the Imperial Age, this was more likely to take the role of a

> political machination rather than an outright religious war. I`ve also

> seen the old Imperial Temple as perhaps incorporating branches of Nesirie

> and Cuiraecen`s faith. The Militant Order of Cuiraecen could, for

> example, have been descended from a sub-temple of the Imperial Temple,

> similar to the relationship between Imperial Temple and Haelyn`s Aegis.

> As for the temples of other gods, I don`t think they were in much

> abundance before the fall of the Empire. Certainly a few existed, but

> were tightly regulated and perhaps had to pay a tax to the Imperial

> Temple.



I don`t agree. I see machinations occuring along political lines and not

simply between worshippers of different gods. The rise in political power

of non-Haelynite priests in Anuire is a symptom of the Fall of the Empire

as much as the lack of unity amongst the nobles is. I am not attempting to

paint some idealised picture of the Imperial Age (although I suspect a lot

of Anuireans do...) - I fully accept that rivalry was present, but I think

it was more likely to be between the prelates than between the priests of

diffult gods` cults.



> In the end, I don`t really agree with your interpretation of the temples

> - that being that they have many priests within them and the priests of

> one god are dominant. That model could have been applied to the Imperial

> Temple - maybe. What I do agree with was the earlier statement on how

> temples represent the political dominance of one faith or another (I

> forget who said it). The example of Endier was used where the CJS loses

> all their holdings, yet the Sarimite priests remain with their temples,

> their congregations might simply decrease and they lose their political

> power (the example of collecting an extra tax on the docks was used).



I prefer to see your Endier example as showing how another faction becomes

favoured over the faction headed by Temias Coumain. Priests keep preaching

and the populace keeps praying, but the priests no longer answer to

Temias; it is the Prelate of the Western Imperial Temple who decides what

is to be spoken from the pulpits (so to speak...). I don`t think that the

people of Endier all of a sudden decide that Sarimie has no meaning for

them and stop worshipping Her.



--

John Machin

(trithemius@kallisti.net.nz)

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

[Osprey]

Woo hoo&#33; Boy did I get my wish&#33;

Great contributions from everyone&#33; This is some of the consistently best stuff I&#39;ve seen on BR.net in a while, IMHO. Geeman, you wrote a really neat exploration about death, how the Shadow World and Physical World interact, and the development of spirit guides (though I should mention, the stats for spirit guides at the end actually detracted from the overall text for me, which up to that point was completely mechanics-free. Perhaps posting mechanical things seperate from large bodies of text would be a good idea?). All in all, nice job, man&#33;

Kenneth and John Machin and Fearless Leader...great stuff, folks&#33; Much of it is quite persuasive as interpretations of temple holdings and polytheism in BR. I feel greatly enriched from the readings. Thanks for sharing&#33;

One thing that really resonated with me, perhaps best articulated by John Machin, was the idea that temple holding levels represent allegiance to and influence of individual regents (and this idea was already formulating as I read Kenneth&#39;s post). I still think they will reflect the dominant spiritual alleginace of the people where they hold sway, not merely political and economic power, but I completely agree with the idea that these allegiances need not be exclusive in most cases. As I mentioned originally, historical reality suggests that the majority of people in a polytheistic society venerate every accepted god of the pantheon to varying individual degrees, or a majority of them. The "better safe than sorry" approach to religion seems to be a dominant approach for human beings throughout history, especially for the common folk who perhaps most felt themselves at the mercy of higher powers (be they political, natural, or supernatural).

How polytheism is handled by individual churches remains up for interpretation and as has been implied by these last posts, is likely to vary a great deal from one church to the next depending on each church&#39;s particular regent and supporting leadership as well as the theology and dogma they support.

Personally, I like the idea that many Anuirean churches of Haelyn might include smaller shrines to Neserie and Cuiraecen (though I don&#39;t think this is necesarily dependent on size so much as doctrine and attitudes of the dominant temple). But I&#39;m equally comfortable with the existence of seperate structures and clergy (temples, shrines , or whatever) within a town or province, existant but not politically significant. I would have to say, though, that a temple&#39;s influence, being corellated to its income, certainly suggests that in general a temple that isn&#39;t "on the map" with actual holding levels will probably get far fewer donations, tithes, and general reverence than the dominant temples. Temple levels do in many ways represent a province&#39;s spiritual loyalties, but whether or not these loyalties are exclusive is really a different issue. That is an issue of theology, and so far I&#39;ve really enjoyed the different ideas and examples shared on this thread as possibilities as to how different people, churches, and regents might view the same pantheon through various lenses and with different interpretations. Again, great stuff&#33; Keep it comin, baby&#33; B)

Osprey

[kgauck]

What I have done with the Northern Imperial Temple is to see the church as

being accomodating to Aeric, and therefore to a lessor extent to Avanalae

and Laerme, but rejectionist regarding Sarimie and Eloéle, although not

Ruornil.



I see this as comming from both Fitzalan`s theology of work (coincidence

that Fitzalan rymes with John Calvin and has the same number of syllables

... maybe) which rejects the luck and greed of Sarimie combined with the

respect for nature, for exampled in the motto "reach without grasping". Not

only do these make sence entirely within a Haelynite interpretation, but the

rise of Aeric often implies the fall of Serimie and vise versa because of

their differing views of the uses of natural resources.



Regarding the Rjurik and an afterworld, someone mentioned that the Rjurik

have no afterlife, which I do vaguely recall from the texts, but have

abandon. What after all is that spectral scion in the Rjurik adventure in

the RH then? Plus, I have taken the druid down the path of shamanism and

that is made the richer by an afterlife.



See also my conversation with Michael Romes from May 2003

http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...pic=1075&st=60

This is an interesting thread about all kinds of things religious and

cosmological in BR. The conversation about afterlife is on page 4.



Those using the e-mail archives can find it on and around Sunday, May 25,

2003 2:08 PM under the subject Death and the Spirit World [2#1075]



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Osprey]

I know that one of the few "certain facts" about the Celtic Druids of Europe was their belief in the transmigration of the soul (this coming from at least 2 different literary references, one of which was Julius Caesar writing about Gaul, and the other? can&#39;t remember). That implies that they believed in an immortal soul, but also believed it reincarnated through cycles of life and death. There&#39;s also definite references to the Otherworld or spirit world.

I think this would be an excellent theplogical basis for the druids of Erik - the soul has its own natural cycle, and why wouldn&#39;t it resemble nature&#39;s cycles? A person lives, then dies, their soul moves on to the Shadow World (Otherworld) for a time (whether or not Aeric&#39;s realm is actually there seems debatable, but that might just be a point of view question), and then that soul is reborn at a time when it is ready for a new life.

Now I don&#39;t believe that official BR canon gets into reincarnation much, probably because it&#39;s not very medievalist, but Erik&#39;s faith is a distinctly older, more pagan-ish kind of faith, and I think it&#39;s important to give it those kinds of themes and views.

Eh, that&#39;s my 2 cents on it.

[geeman]

At 07:34 AM 3/8/2004 +0100, Osprey wrote:



>Geeman, you wrote a really neat exploration about death, how the Shadow

>World and Physical World interact, and the development of spirit guides

>(though I should mention, the stats for spirit guides at the end actually

>detracted from the overall text for me, which up to that point was

>completely mechanics-free. Perhaps posting mechanical things seperate

>from large bodies of text would be a good idea?). All in all, nice job,

>man&#33;



Heh. We`ll see. I usually break things up in whatever way seems to make

sense. Since the write up for the Spirit Guide was missing a couple of

things it didn`t really strike me as something that should get its own

post, you know? If it were finished then it probably would have. Is there

anything about the the description that particularly took you out of the

spirit of the text, or is simply the transition from esoterica to game

stats that was jarring? I ask because if it`s the former maybe there`s

something about the description that can be changed (or included) to make

it fit better.



Gary

[geeman]

At 03:45 PM 3/8/2004 +0100, Osprey wrote:



> I know that one of the few "certain facts" about the Celtic

> Druids of Europe was their belief in the transmigration of the soul (this

> coming from at least 2 different literary references, one of which was

> Julius Caesar writing about Gaul, and the other? can`t remember). That

> implies that they believed in an immortal soul, but also believed it

> reincarnated through cycles of life and death. There`s also definite

> references to the Otherworld or spirit world.

>

> I think this would be an excellent theplogical basis for the druids of

> Erik - the soul has its own natural cycle, and why wouldn`t it resemble

> nature`s cycles? A person lives, then dies, their soul moves on to the

> Shadow World (Otherworld) for a time (whether or not Aeric`s realm is

> actually there seems debatable, but that might just be a point of view

> question), and then that soul is reborn at a time when it is ready for a

> new life.



I kind of like a "happy hunting grounds" or "hall of heros" (similar to the

Norse theology, but not quite as fatalistic) kind of interpretation of what

happens to Rjurik souls who are followers of Erik. Certain Rjurik

theologians might be influenced by thought on reincarnation because that`s

more of an elven outlook IMO, and since Rjurik are the human culture most

like the elves I think they may borrow a bit here and there, but in general

I find the disposition and nature of mortal vs. immortal souls/spirits to

be so disparate as to imply a basic difference in their final destination.



However, it should probably be noted that these aren`t necessarily mutually

exclusive issues. The souls of Rjurik like other mortals might be

generally inclined towards passing on to other planes, but a few cases they

might return. In fact, the spirits of all mortals can return using D&D

magic since raising someone from the dead isn`t particularly

difficult. The druidic interest in reincarnation might be somewhat more

related to "the return of the soul" rather than the more Tolkienesque

description of elven souls remaining essentially "in the world" until the

world ends. That a Rjurik (or other) mortal passes beyond--then comes

back--can still allow for an ultimate distinction between the two

theological standards. Essentially the difference is only the location

that the soul goes to after death.



Gary

[geeman]

At 12:03 PM 3/8/2004 +1100, John Machin wrote:



>As an aside, I think that in the Imperial Age, before the extreme level of

>political factionalisation of religion, there were probably "generic"

>priests who did not have a dedicated relationship with one single deity

>(and the benefits and problems that provides) but instead followed all the

>"acceptable" deities of the Anuirean Pantheon (Haelyn, Neserie, Aeric,

>Avanalae, Cuiraecen, Laerme, Ruornil, and Saramie; not Eloele) at once.



In a 3e conversion in which the priests of BR are portrayed as clerics the

nature of priesthood winds up being much more generic than it was in the

original BR materials. Domains grant access to bonus spells, but don`t bar

clerics from any divine spells the way spheres did. It`s not hard to

interpret, therefore, that in a 3e conversion priesthood represents more of

an emphasis on a particular deity with a general veneration of the whole

pantheon from which the majority of a cleric`s power is

derived. Personally, I`d prefer a more particular version of priesthood

more along the lines of the original, 2e specialty priests, and that the

priests should be as different from each other as clerics are from druids.



Gary

[Osprey]

Is there anything about the the description that particularly took you out of the spirit of the text, or is simply the transition from esoterica to game
stats that was jarring? I ask because if it`s the former maybe there`s
something about the description that can be changed (or included) to make
it fit better.

Gary

The latter was the case for me - a long stint of "esoterica" puts me in a mindset completely divorced from game mechanics of any sort. I look at things through quite a different lens when considering &#39;flavor text&#39; than I do when looking at stats and mechanics. One of the big differences (IMO) is that pure text allows a reader to consider their own creative reactions and interpretations. As soon as mechanics are introduced and stats ascribed to those ideas, that creativity is narrowed to a very specific interpretation and way of viewing the material. Hence I prefer mechanics to be in an entirely different &#39;section&#39; of most RPG texts when possible, especially when the texts are lengthier and more in-depth.

But all of this is just my own point of view, and a friendly suggestion as one writer/editor to another. You may do with it as you will.

Osprey