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Thread: Polytheism in BR
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03-07-2004, 01:16 PM #1
So I've been trying to imagine how BR's polytheistic religions really work. There's obviously a great deal of competition and rivalry between temples and temple regents, but there also seems to be a fair bit of tolerance, acceptance of certain sects by certain other sects, and even occasional alliances or "companion" churches.
Breaking it down to real facts, we see that in general, only 1 or 2 temples dominates a given region in most places in Cerilia. As I understand the domain rules, the levels of temple relative to the province level should give us a proportion of a province's dominant faith and spiritual loyalty.
The problem with all of this is that it doens't seem reflective of a polytheistic approach to religion, wherein each of the gods is revered and believed to preside over an essential aspect of life or the world.
For instance, Neserie's clergy are supposed to be responsible for presiding over the rites of the dead, and then maintain a period of mourning and remembrance for a certain time after a death to ensure the soul reaches the gods' realms. Now if we (or the people of Cerilia) are to give this any real credence, what happens to the souls of the dead in the 95% of Cerilia that doesn't have a Temple of Neserie?
Must we assume that the Neserians are called in as travelling clergy to do these rites?
Have the other temples learned to do without, and now have their own funerary rites?
Or do the temple levels represent Major Temples only, but it's safe to assume that there are minor shrines and household offerings, along with a small body of attendant priests, in most provinces where the gods or goddesses are venerated at all?
Finally, another question: How does all of this reflect upon the spiritual bractice and beliefs of the typical Anuirean, Brecht, Khinasi, Rjurik, or Vos? Do most of them believe in the existence of all of the gods? Are most of the gods venerated? (Historical examples would say yes, as most commoners always want to be on the safe side when it comes to appeasing the gods or gaining their blessings!
Anyways, thought this would be an interesting topic for general discussion while adding yet more depth and a sense of reality to the world of Cerilia.
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03-07-2004, 03:43 PM #2
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Ok there are a lot of different things to talk about here. I think you really have to take each race separately the rjurik generally only see erik as worth worshiping and don’t really follow a pantheon like say the anuirians. Indeed the rjurik also have no afterlife to speak of so they have no need of nesirie.
The anuireans and brechtur both seam to follow more of a pantheon with many gods having places in a hierarchy led by a dominant god haelyn in anuire and sera in brechtur.
The khinasi revere avani and like the rjurik generally only see her as worth worshiping.
The vos worship the gods of darkness and this could be viewed as a second pantheon of darkness separate from the pantheon worshiped elsewhere. Why would the vos want nesirie presiding over their dead it is more likely the kriesha will fill this area.
There are of course exceptions in each of the area's that can be seen as the differences between Christian or Muslim sects.
I prefer to think of the temple level as church attendance rather than faith.
The book of priest craft gives each of the greater gods no superior making them the head of the pantheon for that race with the other gods lower down the scale.
There is a lot of room for interpretation.MORNINGSTAR
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03-07-2004, 04:37 PM #3
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03-07-2004, 07:10 PM #4
At 05:37 PM 3/7/2004 +0100, Osprey wrote:
>There is a lot of room for interpretation.
>
> Oh yeah...that`s why I thought it would be a great topic for
> discussion. ;) I look forward to seeing some grand treatises in coming
> posts.
Well, if that`s the case... here`s a treatise that I`m going to split up
into two posts (it`s too long for one.)
This information is a first draft of a chapter in my little fan-produced BR
text that might contextualize some of the issues of the Cerilian attitude
towards death, the afterlife, and the role of the gods in relation to
death. While it doesn`t specifically address all of the above questions it
does address a few.
One could see the following info as being the BR equivalent of the
Ghostwalk setting, though it isn`t particularly inspired by that
campaign. (At least, I started it before I saw the GW stuff.) It lacks
stats for the Spirit Guides, lesser and greater Lost souls, which I`ll post
once I come up with them. What I`d like to do is have some examples of
"challenges" faced by souls as their traverse the SW, to outline the
process itself, but that`s going to have to wait for a bit since it seems
like all I want to do for BR materials right now is write up materials for
new awnshegh and ershegh....
Comments welcome,
Gary
---ooOoo---
Death: The Final Adventure
“Look upon me, sojourner. I am the angel of death. I am come for
thee. Cast your eyes down to the ground at thy feet. There thy mortal
form lies. Thou art dead. Thou hast been slain in battle serving thy
lord. Fear not for I am here to guide thee to the halls of heroes. Come
now, let us tarry here no longer. There are many souls to gather up this
day, and the paths of death are long and shadowéd.”
Birthright Cosmology and the Gods
There is no god of death in the Birthright pantheon. Not even the most
powerful of the gods are immune to death. In the hearts and minds of many
Cerilians Azrai came to symbolize much of that aspect of the spiritual life
of Cerilian mortals, but in the end Azrai was defeated and even he
succumbed to death. Despite the fact that they were able to pass on their
power to their closest mortal followers does not diminish the fact that the
gods themselves died at the Battle of Deismaar. In such a world death
itself is greater than godhood. It is part of the primal nature of existence.
In the Birthright setting one of the most important roles of death is
embodied in the Shadow World and its relationship to the world of
light. Some scholars and theologians speculate that it was Azrai’s
connection to the Shadow World in his role as the god of shadows that gave
him access to the energies of the Shadow World itself, and that he gained
the ability to utilize the power of that dark reality. It is this supposed
ability that explains his unusual power in relation to the other
gods. Theories on the divine mechanisms of this relationship abound. One
theory is that the shadow god tapped the Shadow World in a manner similar
to the way Cerilian wizards establish source holdings and forge ley
lines. By tapping the power of an entire plane Azrai gained access to
great power and influence, for in the Shadow World lies not only the
darkened image of the world of light, but the embodiment of the
supernatural forces associated with that power; entropy and death. Another
theory is that the Shadow Lord was unable to completely control the forces
that he tampered with and that it was this lack of mastery the gods who
opposed him at Deismaar exploited to create the explosion in which they
sacrificed themselves and destroyed Azrai in the process. Others speculate
that it was the consciousness of the Shadow World itself that rebelled
against Azrai’s control, and it was this rejection that that resulted the
Dark Lord’s ultimate defeat. In the end, however, what matters is that
Azrai was not himself the master of death, as is evidenced by the fact that
he was subject to the same primal forces as any other being.
Whatever the truth of these matters may be, the power of the Shadow
World and its influence upon the world of light is felt not only in the
occasional breech of the veil between the two realities which creatures
from either world use to travel back and forth. The Shadow World and the
world of life and light are intertwined. The Shadow World touches all
things just as all aspects of the Shadow World are influenced by the world
of light. Manifestations of reality are paralleled on both planes and,
though there is variation in physical form and location, all things that
exist on one plane exist on the other. To a person from the world of light
the manifestation of objects and places on the Shadow World seem a warped
and twisted version of reality, dark and ominous. A Shadow Worlder,
however, would find the manifestation of objects in the world of light
equally strange and degenerate, perverted by the nature of the world of
light and life.
The Power of Light and Shadow
One important difference between the two planes is the generative power
of the world of light and life where new souls are continually created,
developed and released from their mortal, material forms. Most living
things in the world of light have a dark, deathly parallel on the Shadow
World. A tree, for instance, will have a withered and twisted counterpart
on the Shadow World. The life cycle of a tree in the world of light is
constantly recycled reincarnated, if you willso that the overall energy it
represents on the plane of light remains relatively unchanged. This allows
its Shadow World twin to remain similarly a constantalbeit less tied to the
cycle of birth, growth and death as are living things. Similarly, the
non-sentient life of the world of light and the World of Shadow exist in
equal proportion on either plane remaining in constant balance to one
another. Animate dead or similar forces in the Shadow World requite the
energies of living things. As such, the two realities are inextricably
linked. Nothing can exist in one reality without a counterpart on the other.
However, those beings with souls that exist on either plane are not
paralleled on the opposite plane. There are living beings in the Shadow
World, of course, many beings are even born, live and die there, but they
are far fewer than those of the world of light and the immortality of their
souls somewhat questionable. The energy of the immortal soul is greater
than that of life alone and represents a disharmony in the planar balance,
creating a state of flux. When the mortal form that houses a soul
perishes, its energy cannot remain in the world of light. It must pass
beyond to a final destination beyond light and shadow.
Thus, when a mortal dies his soul must traverse the Shadow World where
the process and ordeals it endures during its travel releases the energies
that return the worlds into balance before it can pass on to its ultimate
destination in the afterlife. While traveling through the Shadow World the
soul expends energies by facing challenges that not only release energies
into the plane, but test its worthiness to enter whatever version of
paradise awaits it. The number and types of challenges faced by the
aspirant soul varies according to that soul’s allegiances and purpose in
life as well as its ultimate destination, but there are some commonalities
to the process. All souls face challenges that test their faith in a
higher power, challenges that test how closely they adhere to the beliefs
they espoused in life, and challenges that determine whether the soul is
ready to move on to a more spiritual existence, away from their mortal
concerns of the body; food, sleep, comfort, physical pleasure, possessions,
etc. No two souls are identical. Each will inspire unique challenges, so
the challenges themselves come in an infinite variety.
The Final Journey through the Shadow World is a long and perilous
one. Many souls are not ultimately successful in passing through to the
planes beyond. They expend their energies on the Shadow World, and are
ultimately absorbed into the plane itself.
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03-07-2004, 07:10 PM #5
The Menagerie of Death
Spirit Guides do not accompany a soul through every aspect of its
travels through the Shadow World (their duties are many and the souls they
shepherd unlimited) but their aid can greatly assist an itinerant soul
complete its journey. Ultimately, every soul must face and overcome its
own challenges. The Spirit Guide may not intervene directly but it can
help prevent the soul from becoming lost between challenges as well as
offer some assistance (in the form of hints or advice) and
encouragement. The Spirit Guide also acts as proof of the ultimate reward
for the soul should it overcome its challenges. When a spirit is stripped
of its mortal trappings by completing all the challenges that it must face,
the soul passes on to the appropriate location in the planes of existence
beyond the Shadow World for its race, ethos, morality and ultimate reward.
The dead do not reckon time in the same way that mortals do. In fact,
they hardly reckon time at all, so there is no time limit set upon the
length of a soul`s journey. Because time is often not a factor in
determining the success or failure of a challenge, a soul`s journey can
take years. The journey of some souls may take many times the length of
their mortal lives. Generally speaking there is no "failure" of a
challenge. Souls cannot die in the Shadow World though they can be
dispersed in such a way that they must reconstitute, a process that can
take the equivalent of several weeks in mortal time so they can attempt a
challenge over and over again until they complete it. Many challenges,
however, are insurmountable to a particular soul, effectively trapping it
in the Shadow World in perpetuity. Such spirits become ghostly permanent
residents of the Shadow World. Souls that exist for too long in the Shadow
World may begin to take on some of the characteristics of Shadow. They
lose their sense of purpose and become lost in the glooming mimicry of the
mortal existence that is the Shadow World. Eventually, the Shadow World
itself becomes their ultimate destination. The lost souls of the Shadow
World are often driven mad by their frustration. Filled with bitterness,
envy and hatred for all things living and dead. The weaker souls that are
unable to move on become lost spirits whose ghostly, wind-like voices howl
or weep eerily. Eventually, they lose the capacity to even understand the
nature of their predicament and their energies disperse into the stuff of
the Shadow World itself.
The stronger souls trapped in the Shadow World sometimes become the most
feared agents of evil on that plane. They can become Greater Lost
Souls. Filled with jealousy and malice they revel in sabotaging the
efforts of sojourning souls to reach their final destination, as well as
tormenting any living beings they come across. Such beings take on
monstrous forms as warped as their own tortured souls. On rare occasions
these tortured beings have been able to employ complex rituals (invariably
involving the sacrifice of mortal lives) in order to cross over into the
mortal world. Such beings wreak havoc upon the living for not only because
are they cruel and hateful, but also because their power is both deathly
and beyond death.
Because of the difficulty of traversing the Shadow World the gods have
created beings to aid souls in their journey. These beings, sometimes
called "guides" by mortals, act as advisors and mentors to the souls of the
dead, assisting them through the paths they must take to escape the Shadow
World.
The deaths of many mortals on the material plane will often attract the
attention of the agents of the gods. Battles of great size will attract
several guides, as will the death of great heroes. Though they are visible
only to the souls of the dead, their appearance is often seen by the living
as a shimmering or glowing around or above the dead. To the dead a guide
appears to be a mortal of noble bearing and demeanor. A guide usually
takes on a form similar to the race and cultural heritage of the soul or
souls it is sent to gather.
Amongst humans Spirit Guides are called "Wolken" by the Rjurik, and
"Valkyr" by the Brecht. The Vos call Spirit Guides "Walkarai." Both
Anuireans and the Khinasi use angelic terms for the Spirit Guides;
seraphian, cherubian, etc. in the belief that there is complex spiritual
hierarchy or classification to which each belongs.
Elven souls remain rooted in the Aebrynial plane upon death, rejoining
the natural energies that drive the world of light, but they know of and
have interacted with the beings that shepherd the souls of mortals after
death. Elves call them Annwndalien ("those beyond death.") Much like
their attitudes and beliefs regarding the gods, elves acknowledge the
existence and power of Spirit Guides, but attach no special reverence to
them. They are respected for their role in the cosmos as well as their
personal grace and power, but since they do not figure prominently in the
spiritual life of Cerilian elves they are not given any theological reverence.
Halflings have their origins in the Shadow World, and they do not speak
of Spirit Guides openly. The soul having to return to the Shadow World in
death represents a special terror to many of that race, so it is not a
commonly discussed belief among halfling theologians. Whether their racial
distaste for the subject affects their ability to traverse the Shadow World
after death is a matter for debate. Some human scholars have speculated
that most halfling souls enter the Shadow World and remain rooted there for
eternity much the same way elven souls remain in the world of light. In
effect, they pay for their ability to enter the Shadow World in life by
having difficulty passing through it in the afterlife. Whatever the truth
of these matters, halflings find the topic of the soul`s disposition after
death extremely unsettling, not to mention distasteful. On those rare
occasions when they do refer to Spirit Guides they are content to describe
them using whatever word is used by the culture in which they are living.
Dwarven clerics refer to Spirit Guides as the Truok, and their role as
guardians of the dwarven people is believed by many of that race to be more
extensive than merely shepherding their souls through the Shadow
World. Dwarves believe that the Truok represent a higher level of
advancement for a dwarven soul and that exceptional members of their race
will return to the worlds of light and shadow as Spirit Guides. The
"ascension" of the dwarven soul into Truok represents an extensive system
of ancestor worship. There are long, hagiographical lists of Truok that
have been compiled by dwarven theologians, including the names of those
believed to have been the first dwarves ever created. Furthermore, dwarves
believe that Truok influence their daily lives. They watch over the
dwarven people and inspiring dwarves in all aspects of life. Dwarves will
commonly evoke the names of particular Truok as part of daily ritual and
observances. Many dwarves emboss their equipment with runic symbols
referencing particular Truok, call out their names in battle, while forging
metal or working in stone. "Illich vanikar Truok vey" is a common dwarven
expression meaning, "I was inspired by a spirit guide."
Amongst the humanoid races, goblins call the Spirit Guides the Kachar,
while among orogs they are called the Chacktar. Though it appears their
souls must go through the same ordeal as the souls of other mortal beings,
gnolls and most other races of Cerilia have no independent concept of the
Spirit Guides. There has been some speculation by theological scholars
that patron gods of goblins, orogs and gnolls draw some of their power from
the Shadow World and thus find the concept of their follower`s souls
diffusing into that realm more acceptable.
Upon rare occasions a Spirit Guide will appear to a living being. Such
an appearance is usually viewed as a sign of impending doom. However,
there are tales of great heroes seeing a spirit of death in a moment when
his fate is near, but by cheating death avoiding his journey through the
Shadow World (for a time.) In other fables the nobility, bravery, beauty
or virtue of a mortal facing certain death has swayed a Guide and rather
than gather up that hero`s soul the Spirit Guide instead assists him in
cheating death. A favored tale of the Rjurik skalds is that of a Walkar
who in defiance of the supernatural order took on human form for love of a
mortal she was sent to gather up. One of the elven creation myths suggest
their ancestry and connection to the elemental aspect of their nature
arises from just such a marriage between an elven princess and an annwnda
who took on elven form for love of her. The death of this supernatural
being is said to have infused some of his spirit into her and all her
kin. Invariably, the moral of such stories is that in the end no one can
escape his doom, and that the cost of such love is often terrible,
requiring great sacrifice and an existence of constant peril as the Powers
seek to recall their agent and end the life of one who can tempt away a
spirit of death.
Upon occasion a Spirit Guide is sent by a deity as a messenger to a
mortal to warn him of an imminent and untimely death, and on those
occasions when the mortal ignores or otherwise fails to heed the warning,
to gather up his soul. Though such stories occur in nearly all the
Cerilian cultures, these tales of tragic fate and unavoidable destiny are
particularly popular in Rjurik culture.
[The stats for the Spirit Guide below aren`t quite complete. I still need
to figure out skills and special abilities. I have not yet written up the
stats for lesser and greater Lost Souls.]
Spirit Guide
Medium-sized Outsider
Hit Dice: 12d10+48 (102hp)
Initiative: +8 (+4 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 40 ft, fly 60 ft
AC: 22 (+4 dex, +4 armor, +4 natural armor) touch 14, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+17
Attack: Sword +16 melee (1d8+5)
Full Attack: Sword +16/+11/+6 melee (1d8+5)
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./5 ft.
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +8, Will +9
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 20, Cha 20
Skills: Listen +?, Spot +?
Feats: Alertness, Blind-fight, Improved Initiative, Track
Environment: Any land (Shadow World)
Organization: Solitary or squad (3-5)
Challenge Rating: 14
Treasure: No coin, double goods and standard items.
Alignment: Varies
Advancement: By character class (fighter is the preferred class for Spirit
Guides.)
Level Adjustment: +2
A Spirit Guide appears to be an extraordinarily beautiful member of
whatever race it has been sent to gather up. Using their Alter Self
ability, a spirit guide will appear to wear ornate clothing and armor
appropriate to that race or culture. In fact, they wear the equivalent of
a chain shirt.
Combat
A Spirit Guide can use any martial or simple weapon in combat. They
generally prefer longswords or scimitars, however, and eschew missile weapons.
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03-07-2004, 10:30 PM #6
The whole problem here lies in the understanding that by, "the domain rules,
the levels of temple relative to the province level should give us a
proportion of a province`s dominant faith and spiritual loyalty."
Change this to an understanding that, "the level of temple relative to the
province level should give us a proportion of the political power and
ability to extract a surplus."
Every province of sufficient size (lets ignore 0 and 1 provinces because
they might actually conform to the former understanding) is going to have
some representation of clergy of every faith, and some part-time worship.
After all, in a polytheistic model, part-time worship would be the norm.
Here are some ideas that you can use to make this tangible as characters
visit a province:
* Some faiths are wrapped up into other temples. I generally rule that gods
who are married and parent-child are often represented in one another`s
temples or in some places, just give reflexive political support to the
leading temple in the family. Suppose you come into Aerenwe. The Eastern
Temple of Nesirie is the dominant temple. Its leaders are the most
influential, the most connected, and have the unquestioned support of the
temples of Haelyn and Cuiraécen. If the temples of Haelyn and Cuiraécen
totally back up the ETN in matters of politics and defer to the leadership
of ETN in political matters -- support the crown, oppose guilder X, expand
influence here, take issue with IHH, &c. then we can understand them at the
realm level as "part" of ETN, even though at the character level we can see
a difference because they have different buildings, priests, and doctrines.
So when Maire Cwllmie sits down to make realm decisions, and the PC`s are
present, I`d include a small number of priests of Haelyn and Cuiraécen. In
small provinces and little towns and villages, the priests of Haelyn and
Cuiraécen might actually be inside the temples of Nesirie, in side buildings
or rooms.
* Temples which lack holding levels might well be large and opulant, but
simply lack political influence and generate only enough money to cover
expences, hence no RP or GB are generated. Then again, they may be small or
sparce. Let`s turn our attention to Endier. Suppose Guilder Kalien
contests the Celestial Jewel of Sarimie to nothing (not even a zero holding
remains). The buildings are still there and some of priests are still there
(some would leave to take positions in the CJS elsewhere, others would
become polite by uncooperative to Temais Coumain) so from the street you
might not notice that anything has changed. The priests of Sarimie who had
access to Guilder Kalien used to be priests loyal to Temais Coumain and the
CJS. Now its just a different set of priests. They have loyalty to no
specific regent, just Sarimie. Of course Kalien could take actions to
install friendly priests who would be loyal to him, but that`s a different
situation. Let`s further assume that Rhobher Nichaleir and the WIT take
advantage of the situation and rule up their holdings to 6 in Endier. The
temples to Sarimie are still there, but they have no inflience. They may
draw a substantial number of worshipers, after all Endier is a major trading
center (probabaly ships can get this far up the Maesil) and full of
craftsmen and merchants who will be attracted to a merchantile diety.
However, people don`t give as much as they used to because more money is
being given to the WIT, because they have more influence. The temple of
Sarimie has lost tax exemptions and rights to collect income as she lost
influence to keep those benefits. The WIT is not only collecting more from
worshipers, but also uses her influence to gain tax exemptions and to
collect revenues. When Sarimie had 3 holdings, perhaps she levied a small
tax at the dockyards on sea captains over and above the contributions some
of them made to insure Sarimie`s favor for a prosperous or lucky voyage.
The contributions covered expences, but the tax was a surplus. They don`t
get the tax anymore. The WIT is probably collecting extra revenue in the
courts, for example. Consider the nice temple of Rournil in Endier. No one
cares what they say or do (no influence) except a few wizards, rangers,
students of esoteric secrets, and those who have a sensitivity to the Shadow
World. They may or may not have money, but regardless of how wealthy they
are, their income is matched by their expences, so no GB are generated.
Only temples with holdings have enough influence to collect extra revenues,
avoid certain taxes, and thereby generate a surplus for use at the realm
level.
Now let`s go back and see of we can`t get some understanding from the
original statement, "the levels of temple relative to the province level
should give us a proportion of a province`s dominant faith and spiritual
loyalty." Yes, but not exclusively. Compare the worship of Nesirie in our
two examples, Aerenwe and Endier. In Aerenwe everyone pays some obedience
to the ETN, though they may also have greater commitments elsewhere. In
Endier the Temple of Nesirie may outwardly look opulent (or perhaps a step
below the majesty of the temple in Calrie) but people only attend worship or
pay respects when they have dead relatives or an upcoming sea voyage. Other
than sailors, they may have few regular visitors. So going by your
statement, a province like Calrie tells us everyone has some loyalty and
obedience to Nesirie as revealed by the ETN, in Endier not enough of anyone
does to have an impact *at the realm level*. So let`s suppose that Nesirie
is going to send great storms to clean the seas. Priestesses of Nesirie in
Calrie and Endier tell sailors to stay in port the next few days storms will
come. In Calrie the ships will likely stay in port and wait out the storms.
In Endier sailors may go from the temple of Nesirie to that of Sarimie and
put a few extra coins in Sarimie`s offertory and pray for good luck on their
voyage in order to avoid the storms, so you see how an action by priestesses
of Nesirie on one place might demonstrate direct power and in another place
might actually contribute to the might of another temple.
Even in Rjurik, where Erik is the only temple with holdings (excepting the
Siren, &c) one should have no problem imagining that the druids welcome the
occasional priest of Avani or Laerme, who are probabaly actually a part of
the ES or OG. Temples of Haelyn, Sera, Ruornil are welcomed as long as they
don`t attempt to usurp the power of the druids and confine themselves to
their narrow functions. So only nobles and lawyers take note of Haelyn, or
commoners with special problems of fear, honor, or law. Only craftsment and
merchants take note of Sera, or commoners with special problems of luck or
wealth.
Where the Book of Priestcraft identifies dieties as allies, assume welcome
of other priests and faiths. At worst, they are regarded as rival faiths of
the same god. Where the BoP makes no mention of allies or enemies, expect
tolerance. Where there is an emnity, its possible that worshiping gods of
enemies of the dominent faith are underground, furtive, or even
non-existent. We are familar with the lack of worship or underground
worship of Belinik in Anuire. Consider the same to be true of Kriesha in
Rjurik. Most Rjurik, at least those of courage and commitment look to Avani
to chase Kriesha away . So a hard winter will tend to create additional
attention to the wife of Erik. There are some who will furtively pay
offering to Kriesha in hopes that she will withhold her punishment.
Obviously most Rjruik would disapprove, so its done quickly and out of fear.
At the realm level, however, a hard winter would tend to send more people to
call on Avani within the ES or OG and so would tend to increase the power of
those temples, not Kriesha`s, even though a few additional coins or blood
sacrifices are given.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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03-07-2004, 10:30 PM #7
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Osprey said:
> Oh yeah...that`s why I thought it would be a great topic for discussion.
> ;) I look forward to seeing some grand treatises in coming posts.
I have harped on about this in earlier times. I certainly agree that the
Temple Holding system *as it is currently most widely interpretted* does
not suit societies which are significantly polytheistic, in particular
Anuire.
This deficiency can be overcome be re-examining the way we look at the
Temple Holding. I do not see a Temple Holding as being a gauge of the
worship-patterns of a province. Simply because a province (4/1) has a
temple (4) in it does not mean that every person in that province worships
a single god. Instead I see Temple Holdings as centralisation and control
over religious matters in a province. To my mind the division of temples
in BR into the "Temple of [Deity]" is a flawed approach. In almost every
conceivable example (possibly excepting the Vos temples who deliberately
pursue a policy of persecution of any who venerate other gods) a temple is
going to contain priests of a number of gods. The Temple Holding just
reflects the respect and loyalty of priests to a certain priest (the
holdings controller) in much the same way that a Law Holding represents
obedience to a specific noble or alternative authority figure.
This kind of approach allows for a huge expansion of the potentials for
interesting problems in Temples since they are no longer homogenous blocks
of "vanilla".
Take Roesone, for example. In Roesone the religious affairs of the kingdom
are largely controlled by the Impregnable Heart (the "of Haelyn" that
generally follows has been deleted deliberately by me). However a seperate
hierarchy is striving to become established among the faddishly mystical
nobles of Caercas, namely, the Celestial Spell. The Impregnable Heart
faces another problem though, an internal one. There are priests of other
deities in the Impregnable Heart; it has Avanalaens to perform seasonal
rites together with the Aericites and Neseriens and Ruornites to perform
mourning and funeral ceremonies. There is currently a problem since the
Ruornites within the Heart are being tempted by the establishment of a
temple controlled by Ruornil`s faithful, however not all of the Ruornites
wish to make a break with the Heart (they prefer being the top Ruornites
to being just one of the herd, so to speak). There is another, possibly
less obvious, problem though.
The Light and Protection ("Life" sounds goofy if you ask me, and far less
suitable) has been steadily expanding across Anuire from the east. The
head of this faction teaches about an expanded role for Avanalae in
Anuirean religion (In Anuirean religion she is primarily Aeric`s consort
and patron of summer and scholars) and although there has been no open
challenge of Haelyn`s principal role in the Anuirean religion the
Haelynites and traditional priests are concerned. The Light and Protection
is a more worrying phenomenon than the Celestial Spell, since it appears
more universally popular; Avanalaens in the Imperial City have even
submitted to its matriarch. Roesone is specifically mentioned (in PS:
Roesone, IIRC) as having an Avanalaen monastery within its borders.
Currently these clerics acknowledge the authority of the Impregnable
Heart`s patriarch but there is some concern that in the future they will
be tempted to abandon the Heart for the Light and Protection (creating a
temple (0) for the Light and Protection possibly?). If this happens then,
since the monastery is an important spiritual centre for Avanalaens
locally, it is possible that the ranking cleric of Avanalae within the
Impregnable Heart might switch his loyalty to the Light and Protection,
resulting in the loss of some authority for the Heart (Great Captain
event(s) perhaps?). IN this way having more diversely populated temple
holdings makes for expanded opportunities for growth, or problems,
depending on what players and referees do.
Something else that others mentioned, and to which was briefly alluded to
in my example above, is that the gods have different roles and places in
the hierarchies of the different cultural pantheons. Avani is the most
important deity in Khinasi incorporating law, learning, magic, the sun
(and its fertility aspects), and leadership of the pantheon. By comparison
Avanalae, Avani`s Anuirean version, is a vastly less important goddess.
Her primary role is making the sun shine to provide fertility together
with her consort Aeric, and inspiring the occasional scholar. Amongst the
the Rjurik Lana is the wife of the head of the pantheon and is probably
more important than Avanalae is to the Anuireans (the return of long days
is probably an important time of the year in the far north). In Vos
temples the sun goddess is probably reviled as an enemy god since she is
both the bringer of thaw and the rational foe of chaotic fury. As for the
Brechts, I still profess to being confused about how to deal with Brecht
religion, possibly Avani is seen as a guardian of constitutional freedoms
and an impartial "lady of law"? This interpretation greatly depends on how
you view the Brecht civilisation and whether you equate freedom with chaos
or not.
There you go Osprey, I hope that was interesting and sufficiently lengthy.
It is pared down a bit and might be a bit confusing, so everyone feel free
to ask questions if you don`t understand what I am rambling about.
--
John Machin
(trithemius@kallisti.net.nz)
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.
--
John Machin
(trithemius@kallisti.net.nz)
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.NOTE: Messages posted by Birthright-L are automatically inserted posts originating from the mailing list linked to the forum.
-
03-07-2004, 10:55 PM #8Originally posted by Osprey@Mar 7 2004, 05:16 AM
Must we assume that the Neserians are called in as travelling clergy to do these rites?
Have the other temples learned to do without, and now have their own funerary rites?
Or do the temple levels represent Major Temples only, but it's safe to assume that there are minor shrines and household offerings, along with a small body of attendant priests, in most provinces where the gods or goddesses are venerated at all?
Finally, another question: How does all of this reflect upon the spiritual bractice and beliefs of the typical Anuirean, Brecht, Khinasi, Rjurik, or Vos? Do most of them believe in the existence of all of the gods? Are most of the gods venerated? (Historical examples would say yes, as most commoners always want to be on the safe side when it comes to appeasing the gods or gaining their blessings!
As for the role of polytheism itself, its going to be complicated and open to vast amounts of interpretation. Take Anuire for example - within those lands you will find those who believe that only the Anuirean patron, Haelyn, is worthy of worship - to the exclusion of all others. You will also find those that worship Haelyn but often invoke prayers to other gods depending on the situation, such as when a Haelynite finds himself out at sea or lost deep in the woods. Then you will find those that worship other gods primarily - following any number of other temples such as the Eastern Temple of Nesirie or the Life and Protection of Avanalae. Many of these people will worship their chosen god yet still acknowledge their culture's patron diety as being at the head of the pantheon. Finally, there will be those within these temples who follow their chosen god because they believe that their god/ goddess is the most important - if they don't believe their god is at the head of the pantheon, then they believe that he or she should be.
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03-08-2004, 01:10 AM #9
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Fearless_Leader said:
> As for the role of polytheism itself, its going to be complicated and
> open to vast amounts of interpretation. Take Anuire for example - within
> those lands you will find those who believe that only the Anuirean
> patron, Haelyn, is worthy of worship - to the exclusion of all others.
I do not believe that this is the case in Anuire, at all. I believe that
some priests think that there is no other god *for them*, but I do not
think that they see other gods as unworthy of worship. The priests are, in
any event, not normal. Priests often personally devote to a single god
above, but not excluding, all the rest whereas most other people remain
general polytheistic venerating whoever if appropriate to their lives and
situations, as Kenneth mentioned.
As an aside, I think that in the Imperial Age, before the extreme level of
political factionalisation of religion, there were probably "generic"
priests who did not have a dedicated relationship with one single deity
(and the benefits and problems that provides) but instead followed all the
"acceptable" deities of the Anuirean Pantheon (Haelyn, Neserie, Aeric,
Avanalae, Cuiraecen, Laerme, Ruornil, and Saramie; not Eloele) at once.
For HeroWars/HeroQuest fans out there this can be seen as the difference
between a relationship of Devotion and a relationship of multiple
Initiation within the pantheon.
> Then you will find those that worship other gods primarily - following
> any number of other temples such as the Eastern Temple of Nesirie or the
> Life and Protection of Avanalae. Many of these people will worship their
> chosen god yet still acknowledge their culture`s patron diety as being at
> the head of the pantheon. Finally, there will be those within these
> temples who follow their chosen god because they believe that their god/
> goddess is the most important - if they don`t believe their god is at the
> head of the pantheon, then they believe that he or she should be.
I think there are very few of these temples. I think that the Eastern
Temple only reflects the religio-political dominance of the priests of
Neserie in a temple that is mainly based in the pro-Neserie kingdom of
Aerenwe. The only example of a temple where most of the priests are of one
god and where that temple is primarily concerned with one god is
*possibly* the Celestial Spell, and I think that there is good
justification for there being priests of other gods within the Celestial
Spell as well (Avanalae and Neserie spring to mind, but any deity can be
worked in with little problem). The only reason why the Celestial Spell
exists as a seperate temple is because of the political persecution of
Medoere by Diemed and the personal charisma and status of Suris Enlien as
Ruornil`s Prophet. Without these I expect that it would not exist
seperately and we would simply note that there were larger than normal
numbers of Ruornil`s priests in the South Coast.
Unfortunately, for some, applying the polytheism implied by the setting to
BR means that we have to do a lot more homework for temples than simply
noting the dominance of one faith, a cast of other deities` priests must
be created for each major religious faction.
--
John Machin
(trithemius@kallisti.net.nz)
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.NOTE: Messages posted by Birthright-L are automatically inserted posts originating from the mailing list linked to the forum.
-
03-08-2004, 03:17 AM #10Originally posted by Birthright-L@Mar 7 2004, 05:10 PM
I do not believe that this is the case in Anuire, at all. I believe that some priests think that there is no other god *for them*, but I do not think that they see other gods as unworthy of worship. The priests are, in any event, not normal. Priests often personally devote to a single god above, but not excluding, all the rest whereas most other people remain general polytheistic venerating whoever if appropriate to their lives and situations, as Kenneth mentioned.
On the generic priest idea, I have to say I don't agree at all. I've always seen the priests and the pantheon constantly competing against one another. In the Imperial Age, this was more likely to take the role of a political machination rather than an outright religious war. I've also seen the old Imperial Temple as perhaps incorporating branches of Nesirie and Cuiraecen's faith. The Militant Order of Cuiraecen could, for example, have been descended from a sub-temple of the Imperial Temple, similar to the relationship between Imperial Temple and Haelyn's Aegis. As for the temples of other gods, I don't think they were in much abundance before the fall of the Empire. Certainly a few existed, but were tightly regulated and perhaps had to pay a tax to the Imperial Temple.
In the end, I don't really agree with your interpretation of the temples - that being that they have many priests within them and the priests of one god are dominant. That model could have been applied to the Imperial Temple - maybe. What I do agree with was the earlier statement on how temples represent the political dominance of one faith or another (I forget who said it). The example of Endier was used where the CJS loses all their holdings, yet the Sarimite priests remain with their temples, their congregations might simply decrease and they lose their political power (the example of collecting an extra tax on the docks was used).
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