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Thread: Dragons
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03-18-1998, 06:27 PM #11LordSchmitGuest
Dragons
>As for dragons having bloodlines. I've heard some interesting arguments on
>either side. Personally, I don't see why a dragon can't have a bloodline.
In
>fact, it makes as much (more) sense as (than) a boar or a wolf having one.
This is a quote from the Dragon magazine article "Tarazin the Gray" by Rich
Baker:
"Like the other surviving dragons, Tarazin was completely immune to the divine
explosion that created bloodlines of power among humans and other survivors."
I think Rich made it pretty clear. Dragons were immune to the Deismaar
explosion, so Cerilian Dragons do not have bloodlines. They don't need them
either. Cerilian Dragons are powerful enough as it is already.
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03-19-1998, 02:21 AM #12Gary V. FossGuest
Dragons
LordSchmit wrote:
> >As for dragons having bloodlines. I've heard some interesting arguments on
> >either side. Personally, I don't see why a dragon can't have a bloodline.
> In
> >fact, it makes as much (more) sense as (than) a boar or a wolf having one.
>
> This is a quote from the Dragon magazine article "Tarazin the Gray" by Rich
> Baker:
>
> "Like the other surviving dragons, Tarazin was completely immune to the divine
> explosion that created bloodlines of power among humans and other survivors."
>
> I think Rich made it pretty clear. Dragons were immune to the Deismaar
> explosion, so Cerilian Dragons do not have bloodlines. They don't need them
> either. Cerilian Dragons are powerful enough as it is already.
Ah, but the question is WHY should they be immune? I'm sure we could say
something about their innate magical abilities throwing off the power of the gods
or something, but that seems a little weak to me. We're talking about the power
of the gods here. Dragons are powerful creatures, but I don't think even they can
really compete with the Powers.
I think a dragon is just as capable of gaining a bloodline as an elf, a human, a
dwarf, a halfling, a wolf, a crocodile, a pig or a lich. Why not? In fact, a
blooded dragon might make for a pretty terrifying awnsheigh, eh? The blood of
Azrai coursing through its veins might cause the creature to mutate into a
horrific monster the likes of which would send the mightiest of heroes fleeing
like children....
As for dragons being powerful enough already: Well, as a DM I don't know that I
have a really big problem with dragons gaining a bloodline and casting realm
spells. In fact, it sounds like a pretty good way to spook the players and keep
their mitts off of certain areas that I don't want them to get into.
- -G.
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03-19-1998, 02:43 AM #13Gary V. FossGuest
Dragons
MANTA wrote:
> Dragons could have not been blessed (or cursed...) with bloodlines because
> they have Magic Resistance.( This does not imply however that they cannot
> have gained one through bloodtheft as someone suggested.).
>
> MANTA
Magic resistance could make them resistant to gaining a bloodline at Deismar,
but I don't think it would make them immune. First, a dragon's MR can vary.
Second, I'm not so sure that MR is something that would stop the power of the
gods. Dwarves have MR, but they also have bloodlines.
- -G.
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03-19-1998, 06:17 AM #14Wrb41977Guest
Dragons
Yes, and correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there a dragon in Leninsky who has
source holdings?
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03-19-1998, 12:07 PM #15Phil BurgeGuest
Dragons
Vore Lekiniskiy is mentioned on page 24 of the players chronicle of
TotHW as well as elsewhere in the supplement. He was woken from his
slumber by one of the Raven's armys.
Phil.
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03-19-1998, 08:07 PM #16MANTAGuest
Dragons
Dragons could have not been blessed (or cursed...) with bloodlines because
they have Magic Resistance.( This does not imply however that they cannot
have gained one through bloodtheft as someone suggested.).
MANTA
- ----------
> From: LordSchmit
> To: birthright@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Dragons
> Date: quarta-feira, 18 de março de 1998 19:27
>
> >As for dragons having bloodlines. I've heard some interesting arguments
on
> >either side. Personally, I don't see why a dragon can't have a
bloodline.
> In
> >fact, it makes as much (more) sense as (than) a boar or a wolf having
one.
>
> This is a quote from the Dragon magazine article "Tarazin the Gray" by
Rich
> Baker:
>
> "Like the other surviving dragons, Tarazin was completely immune to the
divine
> explosion that created bloodlines of power among humans and other
survivors."
>
> I think Rich made it pretty clear. Dragons were immune to the Deismaar
> explosion, so Cerilian Dragons do not have bloodlines. They don't need
them
> either. Cerilian Dragons are powerful enough as it is already.
>> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
line
> 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
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03-19-1998, 08:38 PM #17prtr02@scorpion.nspco.coGuest
Dragons
- ----- Begin Included Message -----
>As for dragons having bloodlines. I've heard some interesting arguments on
>either side. Personally, I don't see why a dragon can't have a bloodline.
In
>fact, it makes as much (more) sense as (than) a boar or a wolf having one.
This is a quote from the Dragon magazine article "Tarazin the Gray" by Rich
Baker:
"Like the other surviving dragons, Tarazin was completely immune to the divine
explosion that created bloodlines of power among humans and other survivors."
I think Rich made it pretty clear. Dragons were immune to the Deismaar
explosion, so Cerilian Dragons do not have bloodlines. They don't need them
either. Cerilian Dragons are powerful enough as it is already.
- ----- End Included Message -----
Mr. Baker didn't have source holding dragons either so the point was moot. If
you take it as gospel that a dragon can hold sources, you have two choices.
1. The dragon in question needs a bloodline, just like anyone else.
2. Dragon doesn't need a bloodline 'cause he's "tied to the earth" or somesuch.
IMO #1 is the only way to go. It works slick, the reptiles have to follow the
rules just like anyone else. No super NPC exeptions in BR!
With #2 you've got lots of hand waving to do. If dragons don't need blood to
cast realm spells, neither should the elves or dwarves. In BR all three races
(actually only the humanoids- no "official" pulication has stated anything
except that the dragons are very old) originate from the earth or primeival forces of
nature and have equal claim to casting realm spells if this line of reasoning is used.
Dwarves are the true children of the earth, not the dragons.
Dragons and elves are ancient enemies. If you give one a major advantage (like the ability
to cast realm magic w/o a bloodline) the disadvantaged race would have had the spit kicked
out of it long ago.
I'd agree the draconians are powerful enough w/o bloodlines, but hey, I didn't give them the
ability to cast realm spells. Blame Ted :)
Seriously, I like and use the idea that they can cast realm spells. It just wasn't originally
envisioned that they had bloodlines and/or needed them to wield true magic (like the elves). The
consequences of not giving dragons bloodlines wasn't realized until one was given source holdingsin a later expansion. To address this problem, I think we should say certain dragons (like Vore)
received a blood line on D-Day, or acquired one later by munching a scion.
Randax
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03-19-1998, 09:58 PM #18DKEvermoreGuest
Dragons
In a message dated 98-03-19 15:44:12 EST, you write:
> With #2 you've got lots of hand waving to do. If dragons don't need blood
to
> cast realm spells, neither should the elves or dwarves. In BR all three
This is quite a leap. Are you saying that Dragons are somehow the same as
elves or dwarves? According to Cerilian history, Dragons are far older, as a
race, than either of these.
> races
> (actually only the humanoids- no "official" pulication has stated anything
> except that the dragons are very old) originate from the earth or primeival
> forces of
> nature and have equal claim to casting realm spells if this line of
> reasoning is used.
Really? I can't see that before Deismaar, elves created those ley lines
themselves. Not without a bloodline. Dragons, if they do not require
bloodlines, could have.
> Dwarves are the true children of the earth, not the dragons.
Huh? Says what? Only their own religion. BTW, their religion states that
the earliest dwarves were forged by Moradin, not born of the elements.
Obviously, you really like Dwarves, and I admit that I think Cerilian Dwarves
are just about the coolest, but I would think the above statement is a bit
exaggerated.
>
> Dragons and elves are ancient enemies. If you give one a major advantage (
> like the ability
Since when? In the source books, there is no mention of this... Well, maybe
there is, but I haven't seen it. In fact, I'll sight the PS of Tuarhievel
book as backup that Dragons and elves got along (one remained for centuries as
a Lore Keeper, until a bunch of human adventurer's found it's lair and killed
it--apparently the elves were so upset they literally tore the surprised
adventurers limb from limb).
Also, the article about Tarazin the Grey mentioned a long-standing friendship
between this great dragon and an elf lord...
However, I would be interested to read about Elf-Dragon conflicts on Cerilia
if you might produce a reference. :)
> to cast realm magic w/o a bloodline) the disadvantaged race would have had
> the spit kicked
> out of it long ago.
>
According to the histories, Dragons were not much interested in the "lesser"
races and instead warred constantly among themselves. As you pointed out
[kind of] in the above statement, the other races would be much of a challenge
to a race of conquering dragons. However, Dragonkind, unfortunately for them
did not have the inclination to cooperate. Ever. Not even at Deismaar were
dragon fought dragon...
Hehe, much like humans. If the humans ever got together and decided there
should be no more elves or dwarves.... ;)
Later,
DKE
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03-20-1998, 12:45 AM #19Mark A VandermeulenGuest
Dragons
On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Randall W. Porter@6550 wrote:
> Mr. Baker didn't have source holding dragons either so the point was moot. If
> you take it as gospel that a dragon can hold sources, you have two choices.
>
> 1. The dragon in question needs a bloodline, just like anyone else.
>
> 2. Dragon doesn't need a bloodline 'cause he's "tied to the earth" or somesuch.
>
> IMO #1 is the only way to go. It works slick, the reptiles have to follow the
> rules just like anyone else. No super NPC exeptions in BR!
>
> With #2 you've got lots of hand waving to do. If dragons don't need blood to
> cast realm spells, neither should the elves or dwarves. In BR all three races
> (actually only the humanoids- no "official" pulication has stated anything
> except that the dragons are very old) originate from the earth or primeival forces of
> nature and have equal claim to casting realm spells if this line of reasoning is used.
> Dwarves are the true children of the earth, not the dragons.
OK, I'll do some hand waving. (Not only because its fun, but because I
like the flavor it adds to the historical and mythic background of
Cerillia.) Firstly, dragons have vast magical powers not because they are
"of the earth," in the way dwarves or elves are, but because they are "of
the earth _primeval_. I think that there really was a time in the
forgotten reaches of Cerillia's past, when the material world and the
Shadow World were one and the same place. But something happened to change
the nature of the world, some great cataclism that sundered the spiritual
world from the physical. Perhaps this has something to do with the big
battle of the Giants that is mentioned in the KotGD (and IIRC I believe
that there were dragons present at that battle). IMO the giants and the
dragons, being the First Children of the Gods, HAD the strength/power to
cast spells of the power of realm spells. The elves also predate that
time, but if they did have that power at one time, they lost it in the
cataclism when the two worlds separated. Subsequently both of the First
Children have dwindled (in my world, the Giants were more attracted to the
Spiritual world, and eventually all left the physical world for that one,
but that was before the spiritual world was corrupted into the Shadow
World by Azrai. My characters have actually met a Spirit Giant at one
time, but they didn't realize what it was (since it can appear to be
anything it wishes to appear as, or more likely, anything the viewer
wishes it to appear as). However, the giants, having left the physical
world, lost their bodies, with all of the difficulties in reproduction
that entails. The Dragons, on the other hand, chose to remain in the
physical world. However, over time, and in a similar fashion to the
giants, slowly lost touch with their Spirit (in the sense of motication,
driving force, and sense of connectedness to a community of like beings).
And thus both populations have dwindled over time.
> Dragons and elves are ancient enemies. If you give one a major advantage (like the ability
> to cast realm magic w/o a bloodline) the disadvantaged race would have had the spit kicked
> out of it long ago.
Are they? I never got this idea from the litterature. Had a healthy
respect for each other's territory, yes, but there are also instances of
cooperation and friendship. The Lorekeeper dragon mentioned in the
Tuarievhiel DS comes to mind.
Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu
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03-20-1998, 10:55 PM #20prtr02@scorpion.nspco.coGuest
Dragons
Old stuff:
> Dragons and elves are ancient enemies. If you give one a major advantage (like the ability
> to cast realm magic w/o a bloodline) the disadvantaged race would have had the spit kicked
> out of it long ago.
- ----- End Included Message -----
New stuff: (got to be brief-sorry)
1. Read Greatheart for the best feel for Cerilian Elves. They'll kill each
other if they have to. The elven lore contained in Greatheart is better than
that in the Tuarievhiel SB IMO- the Tuar SB had lots of lame ideas IMO. It had
a few good ones too. :)
In elven philosophy (ala Greatheart) elves and Dragons are ancient enemies.
2. The opening intros in the Rulebook describe how elves and dwarves come from
base elements of nature. Anything reguarding the origin of Dragons is
speculation on our part. Cool legandary stuff by MVM though.
3. Most of the Dwarven stuff in Baruk also should be ignored. Grimm strangely
merges with the earth? The whole "made of Mxxxxx metal" thing? Yuk. The
demi-humans SBs have only been good for culture color.
Gotta run,
Randax
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