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  1. #1
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    In the Ch. 2 Revision thread I examined the prevailing system for determining bloodlines of scion children. As I personally find it a bit lacking in explaining the current state of affairs as regents and scions go, I said I'd post an alternative system for determining the bloodlines of children born of the union of 2 scions. Here it is:

    Children’s Bloodlines
    Typical:
    Child’s Bloodline Strength = Stronger parent’s (minor, major, great, true). If the parents’ strengths are more than 1 step removed (ex., great and minor), the child’s strength is one level below the stronger parent’s strength. So a great and a minor bloodline joined would produce a child with a major bloodline. A True bloodline joined with anything less than a great bloodline would produce a great bloodline.

    Typical Child’s Bloodline Score = average of parents’ scores (round up).

    Variations:

    Bloodline Score: Roll 1d6. If a 1 is rolled, subtract 1d6 from the typical score (avg. of parents’ bloodline scores). If a 6 is rolled, add 1d6 to the typical score. A roll of 2-5 yields an average score.

    Bloodline Derivation: A stronger bloodline strength in one of the parents (great over major or minor, major over minor, true over all other strengths) always determines the child’s derivation. If the parents’ bloodline strengths are equal, then the parents make a contested Bloodline check to determine derivation, with ties favoring the higher bloodline score.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    And for those who don't want to go diggin in the other thread, here's a repost of what I said in the Ch 2 Revision thread:

    Concerning heirs and the inheritance of bloodlines through birth. On p. 1 it says,

    Children always share the bloodline derivation of one of their parents. This derivation is generally inherited from the parent with the strongest bloodline, although this is not always the case. The bloodline strength of the child is generally that of the parent having the weakest bloodline strength (or minor, if one of the parents is non-blooded).

    As an example, this would mean a Great Bloodline of Anduiras mated with a Major Bloodline of Reynir would "generally" produce a Major Bloodline of Anduiras.

    What this means, though, is that Great bloodlines can only be sustained over the generations by mating Great with Great or True bloodlines! Given the extreme rarity of Great bloodlines, how are there any surviving Great bloodlines at all? We are talking about 2000 years of breeding here, and inbreeding would be taking a very serious toll by this time among the Great bloodlines of Cerilia if most of them are the products of natural birth.

    I read through the original 2e Rulebook to check on what they said about it. Naturally, it was somewhat ambiguous. The thing is, usually when they talk about Bloodline Strength they're referring to the bloodline score rather than the minor/major/great designation. For 2e purposes this wasn't a big deal because those designators were just general measures for the sake of game flavor, and Bloodline Score (usually called Bloodline Strength except in the table on p. 20) was what mattered the most. Now, with the 3.5 class templates and the (3.5) Bloodline Strength limiting the powers available, it matters a lot...

    What the 2e Rulebook had to say about children was that the parents' scores are averaged, the weaker bloodline diluting the stronger one. But it did not say what happened to the designator (major, great, etc.).

    OK, I see that on pp. 16-17 of the Book of Regency it gets more specific, and spells out that the weaker designator dominates - I take it this was your basis for the Ch. 2 section I quoted above. Almost word for word...

    What confuses this a whole lot is that just about every heir mentioned in Ruins of Empire has the same designator as their regent parent. So does every Avan regent manage to find a Great bloodline to join with? Does every Avan regent use Investiture to make certain they keep the Great bloodline? Sure that's ideal, but none of them die before this can be completed?

    Well, I know the Book of Regency is highly regarded as a good authority on the matter, so I doubt the revised chapter 2 will change...but I think it would be good to somehow account for the existence of the remaining Great bloodlines, because it seems that marriage and birth just wouldn't be nearly enough to preserve any of them by this time, unless we assume that there is quite a lot of inbreeding, which has many, many problems of its own, especially in a world as small as Cerilia.

    Working within the existing system, then, I think 2 things must be assumed: regents with major bloodlines do in fact raise them to Great lines more often than it might be believed, and Bloodline Investiture is perhaps common for those lucky regents who make it to old age and can voluntarily pass on rulership to their heirs...

    IMO, the 2nd option just seems a stretch for human nature. How many kings of Europe "retired" from rulership? How many dictators just step down? It seems to me that as a general rule of human nature, the greater the power a person wields, the harder it is to relinquish it voluntarily. And a blooded regent, whose power is intrinsic and literally a birthright would, I think, have a REALLY hard time letting it go unless he's on his deathbed...

  3. #3
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "Osprey" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 11:46 AM





    > We are talking about 2000 years of breeding here, and inbreeding

    > would be taking a very serious toll by this time among the Great

    > bloodlines of Cerilia if most of them are the products of natural birth.



    I reject the idea that we should introduce inbreeding into the system. I`d

    rather assume a certain amount of inbreeding and not bother with genetic

    defects.



    > IMO, the 2nd option just seems a stretch for human nature. How

    > many kings of Europe "retired" from rulership? How

    > many dictators just step down? It seems to me that as a general

    > rule of human nature, the greater the power a person wields, the

    > harder it is to relinquish it voluntarily.



    This is just a matter of incentives. One could contruct a culture in which

    the incentives are to move out of the center of power into a possition of

    great respect and limited power, be it a senate, a council, a gerusia, or

    what have you. When there is some place else to go besides total

    irrelevancy, leaders are more likely to pass on power to approved

    successors.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  4. #4
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    Child’s Bloodline Strength = Stronger parent’s (minor, major, great, true). If the parents’ strengths are more than 1 step removed (ex., great and minor), the child’s strength is one level below the stronger parent’s strength. So a great and a minor bloodline joined would produce a child with a major bloodline. A True bloodline joined with anything less than a great bloodline would produce a great bloodline.
    You have a good idea (and a reasonable one), but allow me to point out that this would have allowed for far less dwingling bloodlines: you put a lower cap, but what about a higher cap?

    I generally suggest that you work like this:
    • 1 step away --&#62; Stronger parent&#39;s (unchanged)
    • 2 steps away --&#62; Stronger parent&#39;s -1
    • 3 steps away --&#62; Stronger parent&#39;s -2
    • 4 steps away --&#62; Stronger parent&#39;s -3
    or like this:
    Child&#39;s Bloodline Strength = (Stronger Bloodline + Weaker Bloodline)/2

  5. #5
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    You have a good idea (and a reasonable one), but allow me to point out that this would have allowed for far less dwingling bloodlines: you put a lower cap, but what about a higher cap?

    I generally suggest that you work like this:
    1 step away --&#62; Stronger parent&#39;s (unchanged)
    2 steps away --&#62; Stronger parent&#39;s -1
    3 steps away --&#62; Stronger parent&#39;s -2
    4 steps away --&#62; Stronger parent&#39;s -3
    or like this:
    Child&#39;s Bloodline Strength = (Stronger Bloodline + Weaker Bloodline)/2
    A good suggestion, though I like the second concept best (assuming we&#39;re rounding up). Consider it amended.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    This is just a matter of incentives. One could contruct a culture in which
    the incentives are to move out of the center of power into a possition of
    great respect and limited power, be it a senate, a council, a gerusia, or
    what have you. When there is some place else to go besides total
    irrelevancy, leaders are more likely to pass on power to approved
    successors.
    Interesting...I hadn&#39;t really considered that possibility. Do you perhaps have some specific ideas as to what form such a thing would take in Cerilia? Or more likely, in different cultures within Cerilia? What might be some existing institutions, positions, etc. in Anuire? Or in Rjuven (knowing this is one of your areas of particular interest)? I&#39;m curious.

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "Osprey" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 1:44 AM





    > Interesting...I hadn`t really considered that possibility. Do you

    > perhaps have some specific ideas as to what form such a thing

    > would take in Cerilia?



    If one was inclined to devise such institutions, based on both ancient and

    modern analogs (there are few in the medieval era) they would involve great

    prestige, limited power, and the presence of a satisfactory successor. I

    would imagine in Cerilia this would involve a title such as elder duke,

    ducal father, geriarch, or something along those lines. The figure would

    retain a county (would become a province ruler under his successor) in order

    to maintain an independent income. They would stick around in an advisory

    capacity as a member of the royal council along with the normal stewards,

    chancellors, and chamberlain types. They would only do such a thing when

    they were satisfied that their successor wasn`t at risk of being a screw-up.



    The career trajectory of many a ruler might go from being heir, to being

    heir-lieutentant (in which you are both heir and lieutenant), to being

    ruler, then back to being a lieutenant.



    I don`t think the Vos go for this at all.

    The Rjurik may not practice it much, since they consider death by old age to

    a a straw death and less honorable than death in battle (depending on just

    how viking you see them). The PS of Halskapa certainly seems to make use of

    a planned succession from Berving to the PC by just such a method. The

    Stjordvik PS also had Varri abdicating in favor of the PC`s, but they made

    Varri out to be unfit. The Rjurik may use this practice if the older

    warriors still arm for battle against the realm`s foes.

    I think this practice is most common among the Brecht, Anuireans, and

    perhaps most common among the Basarji, for whom it is the most reasonable

    form of succession.



    Even if a third of realms are transfered this way, you might only find four

    or five living elder-dukes in Anuire at any given time. I recall Ilien was

    transfered this way, for one.



    Its also suitable for PC to PC transfer. We don`t have to kill off that

    favorite 16th level character in his sixties just to switch over to that

    12th level character in his 30`s. We can just "retire" him to an elder

    possition of respect, complete with title, heraldric mark (perhaps a silver

    border to one`s coat of arms designates that noble estate of the elder who

    has passed on his rulership to another), income, allow him to be a

    lieutenant for realm actions, and pull him out of retirement once in a while

    for the most serious threats to the realm -- old geriarch Ambrose the wise

    girds on his sword once more as the armies of the realm face the Gorgon`s

    minions. Perhaps there is a chance for old Ambrose to die in battle after

    all.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  8. #8
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 05:31 AM 3/5/2004 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:



    >The career trajectory of many a ruler might go from being heir, to being

    >heir-lieutentant (in which you are both heir and lieutenant), to being

    >ruler, then back to being a lieutenant.



    Rather than returning to a LT status upon retirement I think it more likely

    that such characters should become advisors, detached from the actual

    maintenance of the domain. Imagine, for example, the role occupied by Vito

    Corleone in The Godfather after his son Michael takes over. "Who is a

    better consigliere than my father?" Michael asks, and even though members

    of the organization turn to Vito for leadership he takes pains to express

    that he is not the person to talk to regarding the actual administration of

    the family. LT status might be too close to the actual administration of

    the realm to accurately portray the function of "retirement." It would

    seem counter productive to have a regent step aside and then be used as an

    agent to perform domain level activities. It would confuse the rank and

    file as well as appear to be a demotion for the former regent rather than a

    transition into a sort of "elder statesman" status. There could be

    exceptions, of course, but as a general process it seem better to assume a

    less active role for a retired regent.



    Unless, that is, one purposefully wanted to create a confused leadership

    situation in order to have that conflict the basis of a campaign, a la King

    Lear.



    Gary

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    A couple of questions occured to me while rereading this thread and I was curious what other&#39;s opinions on the answers would be...

    Regardless of which system you use to determine what a child&#39;s bloodline strength will be, the parent&#39;s scores are typically averaged to determine the child&#39;s score. I would assume if one is using the scion classes then the bonus to bloodline score provided by them would be counted into the average. What about bonuses to bloodline score derived from more temporary sources such as Sielshegh Gems? The related question would be: When is the score determined? At conception or birth or somewhere in between?

    Silly questions perhaps...but ones that my players are likely to come up with when the regents-to-be that a couple of them are playing begin to look into producing heirs. Also ones that may have bearing in general given an environment where marraiges are arranged in the interest of building and maintaining strong bloodlines.

    -- Blair

  10. #10
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by BrennanHawkwood@Mar 10 2004, 03:21 PM
    A couple of questions occured to me while rereading this thread and I was curious what other&#39;s opinions on the answers would be...

    Regardless of which system you use to determine what a child&#39;s bloodline strength will be, the parent&#39;s scores are typically averaged to determine the child&#39;s score. I would assume if one is using the scion classes then the bonus to bloodline score provided by them would be counted into the average. What about bonuses to bloodline score derived from more temporary sources such as Sielshegh Gems? The related question would be: When is the score determined? At conception or birth or somewhere in between?

    Silly questions perhaps...but ones that my players are likely to come up with when the regents-to-be that a couple of them are playing begin to look into producing heirs. Also ones that may have bearing in general given an environment where marraiges are arranged in the interest of building and maintaining strong bloodlines.

    -- Blair
    A temporary increase is never applied to a permanent application. So a temporary bloodline score increase, like that applied by a S gem would not effect the child.

    You would apply the the average of the parents&#39; bloodscores at conceptiion, I would think. Since actions taken by the father that may increase/decrease his blood score would not affect his children. I guess the mother&#39;s actions could affect it, but for simplicity and consistency I wouldn&#39;t go there.

    As far as the bonus to bloodscore due to scion class levels - yes they are gained at the time the class is gained and is not treated as a temporary gain.
    Duane Eggert

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