Chap 1 Rev

[Osprey]

The entrepreneurship culture associated to the Brechts is closer to the luteran and calvinist ethics than the catholic one. So I allways thought about the Brechts being like the Hanseatics Leage germans. His trade emporium run over the Baltic Sea and the Northern Sea trough the XII-XVIth centuries. And his sea also turned to ice in winter, like the Krakenauricht!

I am definitely in agreement, and given the Germanic bent of the Brecht, I'm inclined to think this is more what the original designers had in mind when the Brecht were created.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "JanGunterssen" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 8:16 PM





> As every spaniard from my age had to study at school :( Aragon

> maritime power allowedd them to take several islands an many

> territories along the Mediterranean. But his economy was still

> almost fully land-based.



Perhaps you would be interested in a list of Catalan trade consulates all

based in Barcelona. In France: Montpellier, Aigues, Arles, Avignon,

Martigues, Marseilles, and Nice. These territories were owned by the counts

of Barcelona from 1113 to 1246. In BR terms, the Aragonese (Aragon and

Barcelona joined in 1137) may have lost the land, but they kept the guild

holdings. In Africa: Bougie (now in Algieria) and Tunis. In Sardinia:

Sassari, Alghero, Oristano, and Cagliari. Aragon took Sardinia from Genoa

and Pisa in a rapid campaign from 1323-26, it took till 1341 to finally

expell all of the Pisans and Genoese. In Italy they had counsulates in

Savona, Genoa, Pisa, Livorno, Sienna, Rome, Ancona, and Venice. In Naples:

Gaeta, Naples, Ischia, Castellammara, Tropea, and Ontronto. In Sicily:

Tripani, Palermo, Messina, Agrigento, Licata, Syracuse, and Catania. Since

losing Provence to the Anjou in 1246, they became enemies and so Anjou

control of the kdm of Naples resulted in Aragonese intervention there

starting in 1282. They took Sicily in 1409 and arranged to inherit Naples

which they did in 1443. They also had consulates in Ragusa (modern

Dbrovnik), Modon in Achaea and held Athens as a fief after 1379.



That my friend, is a maratime empire. Venice had fewer trade consulates,

but she was acting not as a general maritime trade center, but as the

middle-man between the Islamic spice trade and the European markets. Genoa

had even fewer consulates, not only because she lost out to Venice in the

east, but because she lost out to Barcelona in the west. The loss of

Genoese centers in Sardinia reveal the dominance

of Aragon in the Western Mediterranean.



> The entrepreneurship culture associated to the Brechts is closer to

> the luteran and calvinist ethics than the catholic one. So I allways

> thought about the Brechts being like the Hanseatics Leage germans.



Well, since there are no Catholics or Lutherans in Cerilia this is really a

moot point. The thing I find most vexing about most historical analysis

done on this list is the assumption that using a culture as an analog means

you take the whole culture entirely. No analogy works totally, all of them

are only partial. Since the Brechts worship Sera (predominantly) I don`t

continue to impose burdens from a Catholic frame of mine. There is no

point, Catholicism doesn`t exist in Cerillia. When I look at the Hanse, I

don`t see a perfect match for the Brecht. There are elements that are not

transferable. I can invent new material, certainly, but to a large degree



Also, why is this an either/or issue? Why can`t



Weber had some interesting ideas about Protestantism and capitalism, but

let`s not forget that Tiamat`s original suggestion included Venice

(Catholic) and the Netherlands (Calvinist), not the Hanse (Lutheran). If

Venice and Genoa are trading republics, and leading ones roughly analogous

to our time period in Cerilian technology, why exclude Barcelona? All three

are Catholic, all three were vast sea-going states based on trade. Neither

the Aragonese nor the Italians got into the knightly culture of France, both

were early adopters of fencing with light blades, which is why two of the

most common fencing styles are the Italian style and the Spanish style.

Were the Hanse ever fencers? Its because of things like this that I argue

against using only one culture as the inspiration for any one of the nations

of Cerilia, but urge that we pick and choose our bits of inspiration from

several cultures based on what makes the most sense as described in BR. As

such, what is wrong with using Aragon as an inspiration, especially when we

focus on the Catalonian and Valencian coasts?



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[JanGunterssen]

Wonderfull Kenneth&#33;&#33;

You have given us an historic lesson. I&#39;m not joking, I&#39;m astonish. I&#39;ve never heard about the Aragon trade consulates being so powerful. So every day you can learn something&#33; (as my grandma said).

I agree with you in several points:

First and most important, is that the reference cultures given in the BRCS should be a way to inspire DMs or to give them backgrounds to create a better "ambiance", not a must-be-followed guidelines in order to understand a culture, specially in the broad areas we&#39;re talking about.

So I understand that it is important to point the easiest refference to any DM that approach BRCS. Giving them the "Spain during Renaissance" parallel reference might easily guide to misunderstanding. Almost no DM knows so much about the Aragon culture as you do, and if they are right to point the spanish reinassance in the XVth century they would inevitably think about Castilla (with their Catholic Kings and his Cristopher Columbus), not Aragon (by the way by the renaissance, Spain was not a single political entity, as you already know).

So, looking the names given as an example and the general cultural traits, I think it would be a better option to point the Hanseatic League. An easy one. A more understoodable. IMO.


Second, there is not such Catholic nor Lutheran religions in Birthright, nor can their touch be felt in the Birthright cultures. But BR is the less pantheistic campaign that TSR crated. The concepts shown in the BoP about religious strife, Official Religion, Religious Investiture and so are closer to our historic reinassance counterparts than any other time.

Third, It&#39;s true that the brecht fighting style is closer than the Italian or the Spanish style, but as you said, we don&#39;t need to take the cultures as a whole and we could point in the rules that the brecht style is closer to the Venetian or the Spanish stile.


A personal question, if yoou dont mind, Kenneth: How do you know so much about middle age Aragon?

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "JanGunterssen" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 12:17 PM



> So I understand that it is important to point the easiest refference

> to any DM that approach BRCS. Giving them the "Spain during

> Renaissance" parallel reference might easily guide to misunderstanding.

> [...] So, looking the names given as an example and the general

> cultural traits, I think it would be a better option to point the

Hanseatic

> League. An easy one. A more understoodable. IMO.



If I had to pick only one culture, I`d pick the Hanseatic League. Its the

best single analog. Hopefully references beyond that would also include why

they are chosen. Tiamat refered to Venice as a "seafaring republic" which

is a good clue as to what to borrow and what not to borrow (notions of trade

and government, possibly attitudes towards nobility and class structure).



> A personal question, if you dont mind, Kenneth: How do you

> know so much about middle age Aragon?



A fellow grad student was specializing in Florentine Art History, but found

references to the political goings on difficult to follow, so I wrote him a

brief history of Italian rivalry so he could make sense of why Florentine

artists appeared to be pro-Venetian at one point, but might be anti-Venetian

at another. Aragon came into it all because of the important role she

played in Italian politics starting with the Sicilian Vespers and lasting

into the Napoleonic period. The most important book on the subject is

Fernand Braudel`s The Mediterranean World in the Age of Philip II. Braudel

deals a lot with trade (also in his Civilization and Capitalism series) and

really helps to make sense of what guild holdings are, what they are doing,

and how to use them in the game.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Osprey]

Spymaster Feat

I was disappointed to see the Spymaster feat removed from the revised Chapter 1. While I understand not wanting a feat that gives a bonus to 3 skills, I propose to keep the feat but rewrite it as a regent feat like Master Merchant, Master Administrator, etc., as there isn&#39;t currently any such thing for Espionage.

Spymaster
Requirements: Cha 13+
Grants a +2 bonus to Gather Information and Disguise. Also grants a +2 bonus to Espionage domain actions.

[Athos69]

I wopuld make a few suggestions to help out the new players in the current version of Chaper 1 that is out for comment.

Brecht: Add that the race has strong overtones of the Hanseatic League, and linguistically, they have strong Germanic overtones.

Khinasi: Add that the race has strong Arabic (Ottoman) overtones in their culture and language.

Rjurik: Pronouciation should be (REE-you-rick) to better reflect the sound of the Nordic &#39;J&#39;. Linguistically, the race uses Old Norse or other Scandanavian forms.

Vos: Note that linguistically, the names have a strong overtone of the Rus.

Sidhe: Linguistically, note that this race tends to use Welsh Gaelic as a model. Pronounciation guide would be useful.

This is what I&#39;ve picked up on in my reading for the 1st half....

-Mike

[Athos69]

OK, reading further...

The &#39;Master&#39; level Feats have always bothered me with their proliferation in a PBEM campaign. What do people think about adding a minimum level (a la Leadership) or a minimum number of ranks in the associated skill as a prerequisite?

-Mike

[Osprey]

The &#39;Master&#39; level Feats have always bothered me with their proliferation in a PBEM campaign. What do people think about adding a minimum level (a la Leadership) or a minimum number of ranks in the associated skill as a prerequisite?

Heh, NOW you bring it up&#33; This summer I had written up an entire list of such suggestions, re-writing all of the Master feats to have prerequisites based on a minimum level of skill ranks in the appropriate skill. This was basically 5 ranks for the regional favorites (like Master Merchant for the Brechts), and as much as 7-10 ranks for non-regional types (like Master Merchant for an Anuirean). This way the regional advantage was that low-level characters could gain some really advantageous feats as regents by 2nd level, while anyone could get them through enough experience (regional advantages being most advantageous at the start, mattering less with time and experience).

I recall there was a lot of discussion, and as is typical, lots of different opinions and 10 variants of these ideas, and ultimately...nothing. I don&#39;t think a darned thing ever came of any of it as far as the official Revision is concerned.

So yeah, I&#39;m all for it as I ever was, but I have little hope of seeing much of anything change from the BRCS unless there is one heck of a chorus of voices in support of an idea. That&#39;s been my experience thus far.

Osprey

[Athos69]

Well Osprey, for one thing, I did not have the experience in PBEM gaming that I do now, so I didn&#39;t see how it was being abused. In a straw poll done by the DM in a camaign I&#39;m co-DMing, at least 80% of the leaders of Anuire had Master Administrator, and several of their Lieutenants had the feat as well.

If we make 10 ranks the standard for these feats (i.e. granting them to &#39;masters&#39; in their fields), then that makes the minumum level 7 before the feat can be taken, (and in reality making it 9th level). This would also have the effect of making such characters choose which Master level feats they will take, because by the time you&#39;re 9th level, you won&#39;t be progressing *too* far because of lowered XP rewards for successful rulership.

[The Jew]

I definitely agree with Ospreys suggestion. 5 Ranks for a regional master feat and 7-10 ranks for all others. I have one problem with it though. Administrate is used to create, rule up and contest all types of holdings (though with the campaigns I have been in Know arcana is used for Sources). Maybe it would be best to use a different skill for different types of holdings. This would also serve to weaken what is an uber skill and feat.
Administrate makes sense for law holdings. For Temple holdings I think Lead would be best. Martin Luther and Jesus started their new religions through fiery oratary, not excellent bureacratic skills. For sources holdings it should be Knowledge arcana. For guild holdings I would go with either a Profession, Craft or Diplomacy.

Athos69, do you have a character in that game. I am Carilon Alam.