Human bonuses

[Green Knight]

This is all wrong (and why do you think this is a problem at all, if all

your players are human?).



Other races have advantages and disadvantages, which roughly balance out

when compared to the humans extra skill point and feat (and lets face

it, those are nice abilities to have at low level, but they aren`t

exactly extremely powerful). Your insistence that humans are in fact

MORE powerful than other races, must be dismissed as pure fantasy on

your part.



Most players are not power gamers. Most players want to have a good

time, and most players think they`re having a good time if the odds

aren`t against them in the first place.







-----Original Message-----

From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion

[mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of graham anderson

Sent: 26. februar 2004 00:57

To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM

Subject: Re: Human bonuses [2#2296]



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graham anderson wrote:

People don`t go running for the other races in my games only one

person has played a non human in that case an elf.



People here don`t seem to think that humans being the dominant race is

a benefit it is of huge advantage.



Most races have benefits and flaws that roughly balance out so why

should humans gain additional benefits from a balanced begining.



Power gamers exist anyway they aim for certain prestige classes etc it

is up to a dm to control them.



Just look at kobolds they are inferior to the other races but they

exists in the books it just seems to be this thing about humans should

be great and better than everyone else, why.



In my games i tend to have people begin at the same level but

variations can happen from thier and if your players get upset about

this i would look at who is playing in your games.



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[irdeggman]

Graham,

Make sure you don't take things personally. Even though it seems that people are making personal attacks by their posts, they really aren't, except for maybe one person but I won't go into that one - I'll leave it to the moderators {hint hint}.

Rule one of forums - most responses will be in the form of critiques. People tend to be critical of proposals and comment on the flaws they perceive in them. You generally won't get "Good idea I agree completely" as responses.

But what I see as an issue is that while you asked for opinions what you seemed to really be seeking is validation of you own opinion. Sometimes we need to step back and see what are we really trying to do. OK so much for the philosophy. We now return to our regulary scheduled program.

[Don E]

Originally posted by ecliptic+Feb 26 2004, 05:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ecliptic &#064; Feb 26 2004, 05:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I was reading this and I am absolutely dumb founded. I mean I couldn&#39;t believe the ignorance of it all.
[/b]

I don&#39;t think it is as much ignorance in this case as it is two completely different discussions. One side advocating a standard DnD balancing between the various player races. The other side is more of the philosphy that game numerical game balance is of less importance, and the GM should seek to make for an intresting game for all by using various roleplaying mechanisms, like role played interaction bonuses and variable reward systems.

Neither is the right or wrong solution, they are simply different games, and as such there will always be a dispute here that cannot be solved.

<!--QuoteBegin-graham anderson@Feb 26 2004, 12:56 AM
Just look at kobolds they are inferior to the other races but they exists in the books it just seems to be this thing about humans should be great and better than everyone else, why.
[/quote]
I agree that the Kobold is a much weaker race than the other player races as it is presented in the monster manual. I would guess there are other monsters out there that are just as bad if not worse when it comes to balance. That does not mean a single other race should be dragged down.

IMC I have solved the kobold problem partially by giving them a bonus feat and an ECL of -1. I know that is something that is not supported by the standard DnD rules and it might have some logical flaws to it, but it allows the race to be used as a player race if one wants to follow the &#39;balance paradigm&#39; presented in the core rulebooks.

Cheers,
Don E

[graham anderson]

Ok a reply to ecliptic

I would look at yourself before looking at others

As for aging a 70 year old human ha ha ha i taunt you with my zimerframe
You learn stuff even when you are just wandering about or talking with people and 700 year experiance of that is going to have you learn a lot. Humans are more adaptable but it is down to the roleplayer to do that, not all humans are adaptable.

Next unless you only play hackfests a game should contain a balance of social and non social actions. Indead one of the best games i have ever played in had no combat at all. Otherwise why pick a roque or bard. As for balancing 101 not everything is balanced in the books so why should humans be.

OK again you seam to totaly have missed the point about humans being the dominant culture fine an elf can wonder around in an elven forest but humans can go almost anywhere.

I was not trying to start an argument it works fine in my games and i was trying to find out if anybody else had tried to do something similar maybe in a slightly different way. But i was also interested to see if anybody had an argument for the humans having the bonuses that i had not heard and that might change my mind. Unfortunatly on that score i am just hearing same arguments i have heard before.
I think that some intersting things for me have come out of this such as discovering other people use racial weapon proficiency for instance.

Ok again i dont force them to play humans they choose characters based on a background thay have made up and a character they want to play which is more important to them than having a feat or some skill points. One made up a background of a former brecht mage guild member, another a highlander of mhoried etc. Why are my players stupid to choose character over power.

Humans being the dominant race does have a big enough benefit to remove the other benefits in my opinion so long as you are not playing a hackfest.

I have no problem with elves and dwarves geting a few bonuses above and beyond as they are elder races that live longer and in the case of the elves are more intelligent.

The sidhe dont detect secret doors and the balance is between combat and social interaction.

Kobold can be player characters like goblins who also get a bum stear look at unearthed arcana, savage species , races of faerun and there are plobably others i am missing. In my games no race is a monster they may have primitive and brutal cultures but they are not monster just to be killed. Just look at troll they are a real menace in vosgard and have thier own tongue and culture.

[graham anderson]

Well i wasn&#39;t trying to rile people up although i seam to have done a good job of it.
There doesn&#39;t seam to be much support for it here indeed some people seem realy against it but a lot of the arguments are that humans are slightly weaker in a fight a game is usualy not just a hackfest but a balance of combat and social interaction where i give humans the advantage.

a fifth level elf roque is slightly better in a fight
but a fith level human roque is better at social interaction that is where the balance comes from.

I do use a low level, low magic setting and wizards also might be considered slightly weaker in my games but but they gain more fear and respect in game to compensate, people dont realy know what a wizard can do.

Its up to the players wether we play a hackfest or a social game i dont force them into either and we usually end up in the middle between the two.

The power gamers in my games are the ones that want the human benefits but not having them doesn&#39;t make them change to an elf.


I was not trying to start an argument it works fine in my games and i was trying to find out if anybody else had tried to do something similar maybe in a slightly different way. But i was also interested to see if anybody had an argument for the humans having the bonuses that i had not heard and that might change my mind. Unfortunatly on that score i am just hearing same arguments i have heard before.
I think that some intersting things for me have come out of this such as discovering other people use racial weapon proficiency for instance.

ok being good in a fight is not the be all and end all and people keep saying that i shouldn&#39;t make humans weaker in a fight why pick a bard or roque then they arn&#39;t great in a fight.

Again not all races balance out read the books.

I don&#39;t take anything personal irdeggman this is a debate and I realy am intersted to hear what other people think its just that they seam obsesed with how tough you are in a fight and to me that is the least important thing. I would be realy interested to hear any arguments that havent already been voiced but a lot of the responses are just the same thing again and again by all means make your point of view known but i am more ineterested in points of view and arguments that have not yet been voiced.

Like you don-e i have made alteration to the kobolds for my games giving them some of the advanteges dwarves have like a more dense body making them stronger for thier size and a few others.

[Birthright-L]

> a fifth level elf roque is slightly better in a fight

> but a fith level human roque is better at social interaction that is

> where the balance comes from.



I`m not really against this per se, I just prefer if this balance was

reflected by actual game scores. For example, in my campaign I give all

elves a limited access to the Bardic Lore ability and I`ve made Bard the

favored class of elves. They can use bardic lore 1/day if they are not

bards, and an additional 2 times per day everytime they select a feat.

Their character level is used. This was the best way I found to reflect

elven immortality within the gam



It might be interesting to give all races something like this. For

example, a human might be able to re-roll reaction checks for

non-hostile creatures or receive a +5 bonus to Sense Motive checks 1/day

or more times if feats are selected. (Each culture could have a

different skill instead of Sense Motive.)



Halflings could use a similiar mechanic for their shadow world

sorceries. I don`t know about dwarves or orogs or goblins or half-wemic

kobolds...



But simply saying human NPCs have a -1 reaction adjustment against

nonhuman PCs seems good enough for me. Just some idea so we can start

to look at game effects and really compare balance.



One idea I like is to have quite a few "human only" feats that reflect

their social prowess. D20Modern had a few social-based and

intelligence-based abilities that might be useful for this purpose.

Elves could have feats that turn inherent resistances into immunities.

Dwarves... Well... They don`t really need exclusive feats.



Hmmm. I never realised if before but dwarf seems to be my basic vanilla

race rather than humans... I should work on that...



--Lord Rahvin

[graham anderson]

I considered doing something similar myself at one time. Giving the elves bardic lore albeit a weaker version and giving the humans the bonus feat back if that feat was used in a background area like the feats in the wheel of time book. Like smooth talk +2 to diplomacy and sense motive(brecht lands) or saddleback +3 to ride(for khinasi nomads). I like the idea of regional feats like this as they arent to powerfull and they tend to be more social and cultural than combative. I might even use this in my next game regional background feats , yes its possible it gives the humans a couple of bonuses but not to meny in my eyes but i still dont like the extra skill points.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by graham anderson@Feb 26 2004, 12:16 PM
I considered doing something similar myself at one time. Giving the elves bardic lore albeit a weaker version and giving the humans the bonus feat back if that feat was used in a background area like the feats in the wheel of time book. Like smooth talk +2 to diplomacy and sense motive(brecht lands) or saddleback +3 to ride(for khinasi nomads). I like the idea of regional feats like this as they arent to powerfull and they tend to be more social and cultural than combative. I might even use this in my next game regional background feats , yes its possible it gives the humans a couple of bonuses but not to meny in my eyes but i still dont like the extra skill points.

Try &#39;forcing&#39; the humans to use the bonus skill points (the first level ones that is - the bonus skill point per level is hardly overpowering) on regional skills only.

This is something that will end up in the revised Chap 1, the trade off being that any skill that has ranks bought in this manner (at first level) is considered a class skill from now on. So in effect a human character would use his 4 bonus skill points on regional/cultural skills but those would be considered class skills from now on. He wouldn&#39;t gain more than 4 &#39;extra&#39; class skills using this method and they are regional/cultural. Again this is similar to Wheel of Time concepts.

Expect to see the revised Chap 1 out for discussion sometime next week, my goal.

[graham anderson]

I just don&#39;t like the idea of humans getting extra skill points or class skills a feat is more acceptable to me as it is a one of bonus.

[RaspK_FOG]

One thing that has been misunderstood is that the extra skill points do not represent as much adaptability (that would be more class skills) as it does represent ease of learning: a human can learn faster than an elf. Period.

Now, for those of you who would like to see elves as monster characters, I have brewed the following idea; I hope you like it:

3 Hit Dice Humanoid

+2 Dex, +2 Cha

Immortal
Sidhelien Immunities
Sidhelien Resistances
Sidhelien bonus skill points (+12)
Infamy

Feats to choose from (all have a prerequisite of "elf"):
===================================

Feat Name Prerequisites Description
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leave no Path Survival 3 ranks Trackless Step.
Nature Mage Arcane spellcaster Add Nature Magic spells to your list.
Woodland Strider Survival 3 ranks Woodland Stride.