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Thread: Goblins & Co.

  1. #11
    Junior Member Patrucio's Avatar
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    I tend to prefer my Cerelia nice and bigotted in most parts of the continent, so goblins in my view are not highly thought of in most parts. At the same time, I think that most people would see them as no better or no worse than elves, so I strive to have NPCs treat both species about equally.
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  2. #12
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 08:23 PM 1/24/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



    >Also there is no mention of orcs in any of the published BR

    >material. They have no listing with demi-human deities either.



    In 2e orogs were a sub-race of orcs who had (possibly) bred with ogres. In

    3e+ information on orogs is no longer in the MM description for orcs, but

    we do have a half-ogre template. I think it`s sensible to take from that

    that BR orogs are roughly equivalent to orcs with the half-ogre template

    now in 3e/3.5.



    That`s not to say there should be orcs in Cerilia other, perhaps, than the

    use of their stats as pubescent or youthful orogs. Personally, I hate the

    idea of an independent race of orcs separate from orogs only slightly less

    than the idea of Cerilian gnomes. However, for creatures of CR 2+ it`s

    easy to see how the thinking of Savage Species could be applied to break

    the monster`s CR up into character levels. I am liking more and more the

    idea of racial levels since they can surpass the standard CR of Savage

    Species and be applied to all standard races. In such a system it would be

    sensible to interpret orogs as simply 3rd or 5th level orcs.



    Gary

  3. #13
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by geeman@Jan 24 2004, 04:20 PM
    In 2e orogs were a sub-race of orcs who had (possibly) bred with ogres.
    Gary

    As I recall in one of the compendiums, probably around 3 or 4 the BR Orog, Goblin and humans were all presented. These were 'different' than the standard version and the BR Orog was not related to orcs. I'll have to check my books for the exact section and to make sure I'm remembering correctly.
    Duane Eggert

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>

    Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 2:58 PM





    > Personally, I hate the idea of an independent race of orcs separate from

    > orogs only slightly less than the idea of Cerilian gnomes.



    We have the example of goblins including lessor goblins, hobgoblins, and

    bugbears. What do you make of orogs inlcuding a "lessor orog", ie an orc as

    part of the orog society. You`ve mentioned as a pre-adult, I`ve mentioned

    them as a labor class.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  5. #15
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 11:24 PM 1/24/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



    > > In 2e orogs were a sub-race of orcs who had (possibly) bred with ogres.

    >

    >As I recall in one of the compendiums, probably around 3 or 4 the BR Orog,

    >Goblin and humans were all presented. These were `different` than the

    >standard version and the BR Orog was not related to orcs. I`ll have to

    >check my books for the exact section and to make sure I`m remembering

    >correctly.



    I`d be interested to hear about that. I`ve not seen those compendiums or,

    at least, I`ve not seen entries for BR races in any that I have seen.



    Gary

  6. #16
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 04:16 PM 1/24/2004 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:



    >We have the example of goblins including lessor goblins, hobgoblins, and

    >bugbears. What do you make of orogs inlcuding a "lessor orog", ie an orc

    >as part of the orog society. You`ve mentioned as a pre-adult, I`ve

    >mentioned them as a labor class.



    Generally I want to avoid things that make them a "separate race" either

    game mechanically or thematically. When it comes to the progression of

    goblinoid races I think a single racial class would probably do it. I

    haven`t written up the goblin or orog racial classes, however, so we`ll see

    what happens....



    When it comes to a laboring class I prefer to handle things like that by

    making such characters NPCs--or "commoner" characters. Basically, that

    amounts amounts to them having the average array of ability scores (8, 9,

    10, 11, 12, 13 or using the DMG`s point buy method, 15 points to spend on

    ability scores) and much lower access to vitality points (1 per character

    level level with no constitution bonus) in the vitality/wound system I

    prefer to hit points. "Heroic" characters get the standard array (or 25

    points) and access to regular hit dice. In a system of racial levels a

    laboring class can still take standard racial levels--they`re just more

    killable in that they don`t have vitality points and probably fewer wound

    points.



    Actually, I use a different set of numbers for buying ability scores. It

    amounts to the same basic ability score range, but it`s more costly to take

    the higher ability scores (15+) so ability scores tend to level off a

    bit--even though there are one or two min/max fanatics in my group. (It`s

    in the bloodline proposals document on birthright.net someplace....) Using

    that table I usually give players around 31 points with which to design

    their PCs. The V/W system works out the same way whether one uses that

    table or not, though.



    Gary

  7. #17
    Senior Member teloft's Avatar
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    I do like goblins, thay dont always need to be evil.
    even thow there culture is.

    I started playing the hidden temple of C. in my fyrst PBEM. and there it was ruled thet about half of its followers are goblins. for thay have started converting goblins in the five peaks.

    several goals can be for this.

    one. to have the tribes within the five peaks figthing within them selfes.

    two. unite some goblin horde to attack and take the iron trown. under human leadership. whit a promis of citisenship or something.

  8. #18
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    I have made a goblin class and run all of my goblins off that base class.

    By using the orc as a the basis of the orog, I can start at 1/2 CR, add a

    few commoner, as Gary describes to get orc laborers, or add two or three

    warrior levels to get your basic orog.



    Part of the issue here, is think is mere nomenclature. Is there a word

    "orc" which describes the laboring class of this race, and a word "orog"

    which describes its warrior class?



    Consider the Vikings. We know them by the folk who went out and attacked

    for pillage, not by the name of their thrall or karlykn classes. Some may

    prefer not to use the term orc so as not to create association in players

    minds. I have no such reservations. We ask players to learn what a

    cerilian elf is, to adjust their notions of a dwarf (somewhat less), and

    have done things with goblins that are not customary in many settings. Why

    draw the line and say that orcs, or gnomes for that matter, can`t be

    re-interpreted for that matter?



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  9. #19
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 08:08 PM 1/24/2004 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:



    >Part of the issue here, is think is mere nomenclature. Is there a word

    >"orc" which describes the laboring class of this race, and a word "orog"

    >which describes its warrior class?



    I`ll buy that. In D&D terms "orc" does have a specific connotation, and

    they are generally a different race (or, at least, a different template)

    for the most part from orogs, which makes it a little difficult to use the

    word as a general classification without causing some confusion, but I

    wouldn`t object to a Cerilian character describing a small (or "laborer")

    orog as an "orc"--or referring to a large orog as an orc as in insult. It

    might be comparable to the use of the word "boy" or "girl" to describe

    adults in the United States. Under certain circumstances it`s derogatory

    and racist.



    So I guess the better way of saying "no orcs" would be "no D&D orc template

    with a separate racial description" in BR.



    Gary

  10. #20
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by geeman@Jan 25 2004, 01:28 AM
    At 08:08 PM 1/24/2004 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:



    >Part of the issue here, is think is mere nomenclature. Is there a word

    >"orc" which describes the laboring class of this race, and a word "orog"

    >which describes its warrior class?



    I`ll buy that. In D&D terms "orc" does have a specific connotation, and

    they are generally a different race (or, at least, a different template)

    for the most part from orogs, which makes it a little difficult to use the

    word as a general classification without causing some confusion, but I

    wouldn`t object to a Cerilian character describing a small (or "laborer")

    orog as an "orc"--or referring to a large orog as an orc as in insult. It

    might be comparable to the use of the word "boy" or "girl" to describe

    adults in the United States. Under certain circumstances it`s derogatory

    and racist.



    So I guess the better way of saying "no orcs" would be "no D&D orc template

    with a separate racial description" in BR.



    Gary

    I agree, terminology is very important - especially in 3/3.5. Perhaps calling them "orks" vice &#39;orc&#39; might help. Cerilian &#39;goblins&#39; are basically the same as the MM goblins, except that they don&#39;t call bugbears bugbears they are &#39;Huge&#39; and hobgoblins are called &#39;Elite&#39;.

    Instead of using any form of &#39;orc&#39; perhaps &#39;lesser&#39; orogs and then saying that they are equivalent, stat-wise, to the MM orc might work better.
    Duane Eggert

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