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Thread: Goblins & Co.
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01-24-2004, 08:36 PM #11**************************************
"My conscience hath a thousand several tongues,
And every tongue brings in a several tale,
And every tale condemns me for a villain."
-William Shakespeare, Richard III (Act 5, Scene 3)
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01-24-2004, 09:20 PM #12
At 08:23 PM 1/24/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:
>Also there is no mention of orcs in any of the published BR
>material. They have no listing with demi-human deities either.
In 2e orogs were a sub-race of orcs who had (possibly) bred with ogres. In
3e+ information on orogs is no longer in the MM description for orcs, but
we do have a half-ogre template. I think it`s sensible to take from that
that BR orogs are roughly equivalent to orcs with the half-ogre template
now in 3e/3.5.
That`s not to say there should be orcs in Cerilia other, perhaps, than the
use of their stats as pubescent or youthful orogs. Personally, I hate the
idea of an independent race of orcs separate from orogs only slightly less
than the idea of Cerilian gnomes. However, for creatures of CR 2+ it`s
easy to see how the thinking of Savage Species could be applied to break
the monster`s CR up into character levels. I am liking more and more the
idea of racial levels since they can surpass the standard CR of Savage
Species and be applied to all standard races. In such a system it would be
sensible to interpret orogs as simply 3rd or 5th level orcs.
Gary
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01-24-2004, 10:24 PM #13
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Originally posted by geeman@Jan 24 2004, 04:20 PM
In 2e orogs were a sub-race of orcs who had (possibly) bred with ogres.
Gary
Duane Eggert
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01-24-2004, 10:40 PM #14
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 2:58 PM
> Personally, I hate the idea of an independent race of orcs separate from
> orogs only slightly less than the idea of Cerilian gnomes.
We have the example of goblins including lessor goblins, hobgoblins, and
bugbears. What do you make of orogs inlcuding a "lessor orog", ie an orc as
part of the orog society. You`ve mentioned as a pre-adult, I`ve mentioned
them as a labor class.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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01-24-2004, 11:34 PM #15
At 11:24 PM 1/24/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:
> > In 2e orogs were a sub-race of orcs who had (possibly) bred with ogres.
>
>As I recall in one of the compendiums, probably around 3 or 4 the BR Orog,
>Goblin and humans were all presented. These were `different` than the
>standard version and the BR Orog was not related to orcs. I`ll have to
>check my books for the exact section and to make sure I`m remembering
>correctly.
I`d be interested to hear about that. I`ve not seen those compendiums or,
at least, I`ve not seen entries for BR races in any that I have seen.
Gary
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01-24-2004, 11:34 PM #16
At 04:16 PM 1/24/2004 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>We have the example of goblins including lessor goblins, hobgoblins, and
>bugbears. What do you make of orogs inlcuding a "lessor orog", ie an orc
>as part of the orog society. You`ve mentioned as a pre-adult, I`ve
>mentioned them as a labor class.
Generally I want to avoid things that make them a "separate race" either
game mechanically or thematically. When it comes to the progression of
goblinoid races I think a single racial class would probably do it. I
haven`t written up the goblin or orog racial classes, however, so we`ll see
what happens....
When it comes to a laboring class I prefer to handle things like that by
making such characters NPCs--or "commoner" characters. Basically, that
amounts amounts to them having the average array of ability scores (8, 9,
10, 11, 12, 13 or using the DMG`s point buy method, 15 points to spend on
ability scores) and much lower access to vitality points (1 per character
level level with no constitution bonus) in the vitality/wound system I
prefer to hit points. "Heroic" characters get the standard array (or 25
points) and access to regular hit dice. In a system of racial levels a
laboring class can still take standard racial levels--they`re just more
killable in that they don`t have vitality points and probably fewer wound
points.
Actually, I use a different set of numbers for buying ability scores. It
amounts to the same basic ability score range, but it`s more costly to take
the higher ability scores (15+) so ability scores tend to level off a
bit--even though there are one or two min/max fanatics in my group. (It`s
in the bloodline proposals document on birthright.net someplace....) Using
that table I usually give players around 31 points with which to design
their PCs. The V/W system works out the same way whether one uses that
table or not, though.
Gary
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01-25-2004, 01:12 AM #17
I do like goblins, thay dont always need to be evil.
even thow there culture is.
I started playing the hidden temple of C. in my fyrst PBEM. and there it was ruled thet about half of its followers are goblins. for thay have started converting goblins in the five peaks.
several goals can be for this.
one. to have the tribes within the five peaks figthing within them selfes.
two. unite some goblin horde to attack and take the iron trown. under human leadership. whit a promis of citisenship or something.
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01-25-2004, 02:40 AM #18
I have made a goblin class and run all of my goblins off that base class.
By using the orc as a the basis of the orog, I can start at 1/2 CR, add a
few commoner, as Gary describes to get orc laborers, or add two or three
warrior levels to get your basic orog.
Part of the issue here, is think is mere nomenclature. Is there a word
"orc" which describes the laboring class of this race, and a word "orog"
which describes its warrior class?
Consider the Vikings. We know them by the folk who went out and attacked
for pillage, not by the name of their thrall or karlykn classes. Some may
prefer not to use the term orc so as not to create association in players
minds. I have no such reservations. We ask players to learn what a
cerilian elf is, to adjust their notions of a dwarf (somewhat less), and
have done things with goblins that are not customary in many settings. Why
draw the line and say that orcs, or gnomes for that matter, can`t be
re-interpreted for that matter?
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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01-25-2004, 06:28 AM #19
At 08:08 PM 1/24/2004 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>Part of the issue here, is think is mere nomenclature. Is there a word
>"orc" which describes the laboring class of this race, and a word "orog"
>which describes its warrior class?
I`ll buy that. In D&D terms "orc" does have a specific connotation, and
they are generally a different race (or, at least, a different template)
for the most part from orogs, which makes it a little difficult to use the
word as a general classification without causing some confusion, but I
wouldn`t object to a Cerilian character describing a small (or "laborer")
orog as an "orc"--or referring to a large orog as an orc as in insult. It
might be comparable to the use of the word "boy" or "girl" to describe
adults in the United States. Under certain circumstances it`s derogatory
and racist.
So I guess the better way of saying "no orcs" would be "no D&D orc template
with a separate racial description" in BR.
Gary
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01-25-2004, 12:03 PM #20
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Originally posted by geeman@Jan 25 2004, 01:28 AM
At 08:08 PM 1/24/2004 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>Part of the issue here, is think is mere nomenclature. Is there a word
>"orc" which describes the laboring class of this race, and a word "orog"
>which describes its warrior class?
I`ll buy that. In D&D terms "orc" does have a specific connotation, and
they are generally a different race (or, at least, a different template)
for the most part from orogs, which makes it a little difficult to use the
word as a general classification without causing some confusion, but I
wouldn`t object to a Cerilian character describing a small (or "laborer")
orog as an "orc"--or referring to a large orog as an orc as in insult. It
might be comparable to the use of the word "boy" or "girl" to describe
adults in the United States. Under certain circumstances it`s derogatory
and racist.
So I guess the better way of saying "no orcs" would be "no D&D orc template
with a separate racial description" in BR.
Gary
Instead of using any form of 'orc' perhaps 'lesser' orogs and then saying that they are equivalent, stat-wise, to the MM orc might work better.Duane Eggert
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