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  1. #1
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    Hi everyone,

    As you know if you've read my other posts, I'm playing that old PC game, the Gorgon's alliance. It inspired me to start up a BR campaign and I'm gearing up for it.

    In the game the regents and lieutenants get experience for performing domain actions successfully. Is this something unique to the game, or should my PC regents or lieutentants be getting XP for domain actions, too? I couldn't find a chart in the d20 reference that I downloaded, so I thought I would ask here what you all do.

    Do your PCs just experience through adventuring, or do you award for domain actions?

    thanks!
    Carpe DM

  2. #2
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    Originally posted by camelotcrusade@Jan 5 2004, 01:35 AM
    Hi everyone,

    As you know if you've read my other posts, I'm playing that old PC game, the Gorgon's alliance. It inspired me to start up a BR campaign and I'm gearing up for it.

    In the game the regents and lieutenants get experience for performing domain actions successfully. Is this something unique to the game, or should my PC regents or lieutentants be getting XP for domain actions, too? I couldn't find a chart in the d20 reference that I downloaded, so I thought I would ask here what you all do.

    Do your PCs just experience through adventuring, or do you award for domain actions?

    thanks!
    Hi,

    I believe many (if not most) games that are heavy on domain level play feature some mechanism for rewarding characters XP for the domain actions they perform. There is a short paragraph on the subject on page 150 in the D20 conversion.

    Some previous discussion on the topic can be found at
    http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php...t=ST&f=2&t=2070
    and (long thread, and mixed with a lot of other stuff)
    http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php...=ST&f=36&t=1876
    There are most likely other old threads that somebody can point out to you.

    Personally I prefer the PCs getting the majority of their experience through adventures, with some gained from the completion of important domain actions. What constitutes as an important domain action is of course a matter of taste. One example could be a espionage action that allows the players to uncover who was behind the assassination of an important person at the court.

    Cheers,
    Don E

  3. #3
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    Thank you very much for the reply, I will check it out. I hope somebody can dig up the adventure editor for me to use with my computer game, too!

    camelotcrusade
    Carpe DM

  4. #4
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    In a message dated 1/4/04 8:07:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,

    brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:



    << Is this something unique to the game, or should my PC regents or

    lieutentants be getting XP for domain actions, too? I couldn&#39;t find a chart in the

    d20 reference that I downloaded, so I thought I would ask here what you all

    do. Do your PCs just experience through adventuring, or do you award for

    domain actions?thanks&#33; >>



    I do not. I prefer to give RP or other rewards for domain actions, and XP

    only for adventuring.



    Lee.

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    Then how do you explain a regent gaining level if he is not an adventurer?



    I don`t see someone like the Duchess of Brosengae racing off to adventure

    and fight Trolls in the mountains. She would have men at arms and champions

    to do that.



    3e D&D made a point to award XP for non combat encounters.



    You should gain XP for successfully ruling and maintaing a domain not just

    adventuring.



    -Anakin Miller



    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "Lee Hanna" <LeeHa1854@AOL.COM>

    To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>

    Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 4:05 PM

    Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] Experience For Domain Actions? [2#2182]





    > In a message dated 1/4/04 8:07:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,

    > brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

    >

    > << Is this something unique to the game, or should my PC regents or

    > lieutentants be getting XP for domain actions, too? I couldn&#39;t find a

    chart in the

    > d20 reference that I downloaded, so I thought I would ask here what you

    all

    > do. Do your PCs just experience through adventuring, or do you award for

    > domain actions?thanks&#33; >>

    >

    > I do not. I prefer to give RP or other rewards for domain actions, and XP

    > only for adventuring.

    >

    > Lee.

    >

    >



    >

    > Birthright-l Archives:

    http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html

    >

    >

    >

  6. #6
    I dunno about 3e as I&#39;m strictly playing 2e but I think XP can be awarded for non-combat actions, like roleplaying. If a player handled diplomacy or a random event or some other domain action in which he put in effort to roleplay, he should be rewarded for it. As this is a roleplaying game, roleplaying should be rewarded, right?

  7. #7
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 01:37 AM 1/6/2004 +0100, Elijah wrote:



    >I dunno about 3e as I`m strictly playing 2e but I think XP can be awarded

    >for non-combat actions, like roleplaying. If a player handled diplomacy or

    >a random event or some other domain action in which he put in effort to

    >roleplay, he should be rewarded for it. As this is a roleplaying game,

    >roleplaying should be rewarded, right? :)



    I absolutely agree. I keep a tally of players` good role-playing; witty

    dialogue, smart moves that aid the action, good descriptions, etc. all get

    a little hash mark that later turns into a CR award based on their

    character level. Particularly good role-playing (or just particularly good

    play) can sometimes earn two hash marks, and from time to time I have noted

    particularly bad play by taking away hash marks.



    When awarding XP I use the following formula as a guideline to determine

    the role-playing award. Add the number of hash marks to the character

    level of the PC and subtract the number of encounters in the adventure to

    get a CR value. That is, if a player with a 5th level PC got three hash

    marks in an adventure that had four encounters he would get 3 (hash marks)

    + 5 (character level) - 4 (encounters) = CR 4 award. I then divide this

    award by 4 since the CR system assumes four characters in the party and

    this is an individual award, so the PC would get 250 XP for role-playing in

    that adventure.



    Because of the steps in the CR award table really good, consistent play can

    sometimes rival or exceed that of encounters--depending on the nature of

    the adventure, of course. In the same adventure a player who got six hash

    marks would get 6 + 5 - 4 = CR 7 award for 750 XP, while his share of four

    CR 4 encounters would be 1,500 XP. (Actually, I always award 1/4 the XP

    suggested in the DMG since I just find that a much more comfortable pace of

    levelling characters (and prefer a low level campaign anyway) so in the

    previous example a character IMC would actually earn 500XP for his

    encounters and 750 for good role-playing)



    I usually play domain actions out as adventures, so generally I`m in favor

    of XP awards for domain actions since I see them as just a way of resolving

    adventure level results, so XP awards are built in, but if one just

    determined the results of the domain actions with a die roll one could

    still award role-playing using the same formula as that above, assuming a

    certain number of encounters based on the difficulty of the action. Say 1

    encounter per 5 points of difficulty. PCs should get XP for domain level

    actions, but they should get more XP for domain level actions that players

    actually involve themselves in, so depending on the amount of actual

    role-playing they do such a system could help inject more role-playing into

    the domain level, which can easily be a distraction otherwise.



    Gary

  8. #8
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    EDIT: Doh, my spaces aren&#39;t working. Anybody know how I can get them to show up? It&#39;s nicely spaced in my box before I submit it...

    If I can&#39;t fix it, then assume the first # is for fighters, the second for priests, the 3rd for thieves, and the 4th for wizard characters.
    ----
    Finally, something to contribute&#33; It&#39;s not exactly appropriate to 3e, but I found the computer game&#39;s system for rewarding xp for domain actions and will post it here. Don&#39;t shoot the messenger, but I think it&#39;s interesting to see:

    For the purpose of this table, Bards are considered Thieves, Paladins as fighters, and Rangers as fighters

    Domain Action Fighter Priest Thief Wizard

    Agitate 500 1,000 1,000 1,000
    Build Road 50 50 50 50
    Build Trde Rte 500 500 3,000 500
    Contest Guild 500 500 2,000 500
    Law 2,000 500 500 500
    Source 500 500 500 2,000
    Temple 500 2,000 500 500
    Create Guild 500 500 2,000 500
    Law 2,000 500 500 500
    Source 500 500 500 2,000
    Temple 500 2,000 500 500

    Declare War 1,000 500 500 500

    Diplomacy
    Per. Alliance 2,000 2,000 2,000 2,000
    Full Alliance 4,000 4,000 4,000 4,000
    Vassalage 10,000 10,000 10,000 10,000

    Espionage
    Spy 500 500 1000 500
    Assassinate 500 500 1000 500

    Forge Ley Line 500 500 500 2,000

    Investiture 5,000 5,000 5,000 5,000

    Realm Spell 1,000 x Spell Level

    Rule
    Province 1,000 x New Level
    Guild Holding 500 x New Level (but Thieves 1,000 x New Level)
    Law Holding 500 x New Level (but Fighters 1,000 x New Level)
    Source Hold. 500 x New Level (but Wizards 1,000 x New Level)
    Temple Hold. 500 x New Level (but Priests 1,000 x New Level)

    Multiclass characters get their appropriate bonus.
    ------
    I can say from experience that in the game it ends up leveling everyone up to the same playing field rather quickly (about level 7-9) and after you hit level 10 or so the amounts don&#39;t matter as much (particularly using 2nd edition xp tables).

    I think this resource is interesting because it suggests the idea of giving bonuses for classes acting "as a class should" and rewarding you accordingly. What do you guys think about that idea? I may use the chart in the playtest guide for 3, but award bonuses when PCs work on their areas of specialty. It could also help you level up a low-ranking lieutenant...
    Carpe DM

  9. #9
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    If the nature of one`s campaign is to play a lot of political scenarios,

    expository scenarios (eg. players visit Halskapa, learn the history,

    politics, and important characters in the realm), and scenarios based on

    realm turns, it can be hard to get very much combat in. The realm turns are

    the easiest to add combat to (many involve potential confrontations) but

    again the stakes of such confrontaions are often much higher than the actual

    combat risk. Take a recent occurance of a Monsters of Brigandage. I placed

    a family of seven ogres (two brothers and their families) in Hollenvik as

    one of several random events. They players set off wanting to determine if

    the ogres were politically hostile or just causing trouble because they have

    over-hunted their range and were just preying on local livestock. Well, had

    the ogres just needed fresh hunting grounds, the players would have arranged

    parley and told the ogres where they could hunt undisturbed. They would

    treat the adventure as though the ogres were a band of the Rykar tribe of

    nomadic Rjurik. Had the ogres been politically hostile and from a foreign

    realm, they would have been treated as enemies and either defeated or

    co-opted, depending the realm and the loyalty of the ogres. In this case

    the ogres were taking revenge on the town of Stoer for the murder of one of

    their kinsmen. The party arrives in Stoer, and quickly finds out the

    sheriff and his men killed a young male ogre several weeks ago. He had been

    caught stealing cattle. They party wants to settle the matter without

    outright defeat of the ogres, because you never know when you will encounter

    people you have met befoe and parted on goods terms with. Friendly ogres

    could be valuable. On the other hand, the ogres are in the wrong (by Rjurik

    law) in pursuing this feud. The young ogre was killed in a raid, and his

    family is not entitled to wergild (man-price). Now the ogres must be

    convinced and agree to leave Stoer in peace. So the players go out hunting

    the ogres, who don`t want to be found and are canny in the wilderness.

    Eventually the PC druid ended up casting a Commune with Nature spell to

    locate the ogres, a spell I complicated by having the spell summon a hostile

    fey to answer the druid. The boogie in question knew the location of the

    ogres but just didn`t want to tell the druid anything, yet was summoned by

    the spell and was compelled by the spell to remain summoned until he told.

    This just made the boogie man more angry. First the boogie tried to make

    the party go away so the boogie could either try and out wait the summoning

    or have his "curse` lifted by an ally. He tried to become invisible, played

    tricks on the party and was otherwise a nusance. The ranger, Herthbjorn,

    captured the boogie as it attempted to trip him, and put the boogie into a

    deeper form of compulsion. Fey hate to be prisoners, and many will go to

    great lengths to gain their freedom, including granting "wishes" by casting

    fey magic (not true wishes). But this boogie was still insistant upon

    refusing to provide the location of the ogres ... unless the ranger could

    answer a riddle. http://www.catb.org/~esr/riddle-poems.html



    The boogie gave the following riddle, "A tree of many branches, my forest in

    flight, when captured, I become an ornament bright." Eventually the players

    figured out the answer was a feather, and the boogie answered the druid`s

    question and revealed the location of the ogres. Challenge rating of 3 for

    a party of 5.



    The players arrived at the location given them, an ogre camp, and find fresh

    tracks, the follow and find the ogres passing around a bucket of water at a

    pond. Neither group is surprised, and the eorl of Hollenvik, Cuthbeort the

    ironarm, announced he is there to settle the matter of the feud between the

    ogres and the town of Stoer. The two ogre brothers get angry, one of the

    female ogres cries out in pain. They demand that the murderers pay for the

    death of their son/nephew. It is their custom to demand the same weight in

    human flesh as the ogre who was killed. In the meantime, they respect no

    proptery rights among the murderers. The eorl Cuthbeort tells them that as

    their kinsmen died on a raid stealing cattle, they have no rights to

    compensation as he was not murdered, only killed. (Murder required the

    killed be innocent.) Neither side is willing to abide bye the law of the

    other side, so Cuthbeort declares that in such cases, single combat must

    settle the question once and for all. The ogres agree to these terms.

    Cuthbeort suggests rowing out to an island on the coast of Hollenvik for

    single combat in the Rjurik tradition. The ogres have no intention going

    across water to settle this matter. Both agree to duel at this present

    location. The ogres agree that either the death of Cuthbeort or his victory

    will satisfy their feud. They mark out an area that the combatants must

    remain inside or forfit. The dead ogre`s uncle, the older of the brothers

    and a 5th level fighter, will fight against Cuthbeort. The ogre tries to

    disarm, trip, and bull rush Cuthbeort. These will make use of his much

    superior Strength (of 24, BTW) and size. Cuthbeort is basically counting on

    his much higher BAB and hp (Arisocrat 10/Fighter 4) and his Improved

    Critical. After a few knockdowns and getting an ogre power attack in the

    prone possition, and loosing his sword twice (both times he was able to

    recover it in the dueling area) Cuthbeort got the two criticals he needed to

    reduce the ogre`s wounds to below zero (the ogre had 79 hp and 18 wounds)

    and claimed victory. A bit of healing magic was used to get the defeated

    ogre on his feat again. Cuthbeort declared that if the ogres continued the

    feud after their defeat, he would regard them as outlaws in his realm and

    would once again hunt them down as such. He successfuly implied (innuendo)

    that next time there would be no single combat, just an all out attack. The

    ogres agreed that the matter was settled and were impressed by Cuthbeort`s

    prowess and compassion.



    This is what passes for a combat oriented advenure in my campiagn. Two

    encounters, one fight involving a single character. Now we do run up and

    make war against the Blood Skull barony from time to time, and those are

    mostly combat, with some tactical problem solving and survival skills thrown

    in. But, most of the time, adventures can be nearly combat free, full of

    gather information checks, diplomacy, and figuring out who is up to what.



    In the above description, the CR for the boogie was 3, insignificant for a

    party of five whose average level is 15, and all of the ogres together is a

    CR of 8, enough to be worth 375 xp for the party, and the lead ogre a CR of

    7 for 350 xp for Cuthbeort. Instead, I went with a mission goal and

    assigned 1000xp apeice and gave Cuthbeort a RP plus the party has the

    intangible benefit of some ogres who will regard them as fair and worthy

    (although not friendly).



    Typically, if a Domain Action is played out, I`ll give a mission award based

    on what is at stake. I`ve use 500-2000 xp for total mission awards for

    lower level characters (who are confronting less powerful adversaries) and

    1000-3000 xp for higher level characters. Typically, I don`t give standard

    combat awards if I am giving mission awards, but I have given combat awards

    out on top of mission awards when the PC`s do little side encounters during

    a larger mission (eg. the arrive in a town to find out what role the

    Stjordvik Traders had in the corruption of a royal judge, find out the town

    children are being abuducted by a wierd hermit and go save the children

    before uncovering the corrution mission). The extra encounter has to be

    unrelated to main mission and the PC`s need to have the option of passing it

    up to advance the mission (the PC`s did not have to bother with the children

    to uncover the corruption, in fact the delay risked making the central

    mission more difficult) in order for me to assign standard awards for such

    encounters. Encountering bandits on the road is not going to be an

    opportunity for standard awards unless the PC`s did not have to confront

    them and could have left them to their business, but chose to deal with the

    bandits anyway.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  10. #10
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by camelotcrusade@Jan 6 2004, 08:51 AM
    Declare War 1,000 500 500 500
    Investiture 5,000 5,000 5,000 5,000
    ------
    I can say from experience that in the game it ends up leveling everyone up to the same playing field rather quickly (about level 7-9) and after you hit level 10 or so the amounts don&#39;t matter as much (particularly using 2nd edition xp tables).

    I think this resource is interesting because it suggests the idea of giving bonuses for classes acting "as a class should" and rewarding you accordingly. What do you guys think about that idea? I may use the chart in the playtest guide for 3, but award bonuses when PCs work on their areas of specialty. It could also help you level up a low-ranking lieutenant...

    I would not award exp for declaring war since this doesn&#39;t accompish anything or overcome anything. A successfully waged war is another thing (i.e., exp for victory).

    Also investiture is something that is not overcoming an obstacle.

    How can you reward a character for playing like a class when he/she is multi-class or dual classed? This system would favor demi-humans since they are more likely to be multi-class while humans are very unlikely to be dual class (as I recall the 2nd ed rules were a 17 abililty score in the primary ability of the subsequent class and the character cannot advance in his first class anymore).

    Also many of the things mentioned are really independent of class - like ruling for instance. A character can rule up a holding or he/she can rule an entire province there is no real difference in the domain action per se.

    One of the many improvements made in 3/3.5 was the elimination of the flat exp number awards. Everything is scaled based on the challenge the situation presents.
    Duane Eggert

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