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  1. #31
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    I posted this thread a while ago. Every now and then it deserves a revist, IMO, to help us all stay focused.

    Until recently I had not noticed any disrespect in this thread, just open and frank discussions and many historical references.

    Anyway check out the thread, we all could use a refresh.

    http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...showtopic=1848
    Duane Eggert

  2. #32
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "tsarrion" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 12:50 PM



    > My point is that if we do salvage and pillage from the dead HERE in

    > this world why is it any different in another fantasy or not?



    Here is one example. The spirits of the dead resent it. When the dead have

    items stolen from them, they may haunt the theives, or they might haunt

    their kin to avenge the wrong. Why did Hamlet`s ghost come back and speak

    with Hamlet? Why did the Spectral Scion come back in the adventure in the

    Rjurik Highlands book?



    > how many of these painting or ancient momentos were looted

    > from the ancient pyramids or greece?



    The objects from the pyramids especially are often associated with a curse.

    Sometimes with the mummy animating to protect his stuff. In a fantasy game

    this can be real, not just legend or superstition.



    I am far, far more inclined to take the old legends and superstions as the

    point of view for my game`s reality than I am my own interpreation of

    reality as a player. That`s why its *fantasy* role playing.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  3. #33
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    Even in a magical world in which people have not the fear of reprisal from

    the dead alone, but the reality of reprisal from the dead in the form of

    very real fantastic creatures, the question is not IMO whether or not

    people would loot the bodies of the fallen after a battle. Of course they

    would, ghosts or no ghosts. It`s too tempting, too near, the value to

    high, and the desire for trophies is too strong to be ignored.



    The question is how much can a regent expect to gain from defeating units

    at the large scale combat level of BR? As I see it, there are several

    factors in such a consideration:



    A. The number of dead soldiers left on the battlefield (as opposed to

    them being carried off by their compatriots or their mounts) when a unit is

    defeated whose equipment can be looted.

    B. The number of captured soldiers when a unit is defeated whose

    equipment will be confiscated.

    C. The amount of equipment left on the battlefield by a fleeing enemy.

    D. The percentage of the equipment that is salvageable. ie. breakage.

    E. The percentage of the equipment that is actually found (vs lost

    forever among the weeds or buried with the dead.)

    F. The percentage of that salvageable equipment that makes its way into

    the hands of the victorious regent to be turned into GB (Finance action) or

    to use to equip for his own troops (as opposed to that percentage that is

    stolen by scavengers or otherwise lost.)



    One thing to note about the above list: Only #1 is going to provoke fear of

    spiritual reprisal, even if one were to consider such fear greater than the

    rewards of . There are still going to be captured soldiers or equipment

    left on the field that can be taken by a victorious army, so whether or not

    one thinks that looting the dead is an issue that`s only part of where the

    value of looting equipment after units are defeated might come from.



    Anyway, all told several of the above factors represent fractions for an

    expression of the overall value of the units. Value of "destroyed" unit`s

    equipment * (A + B + C) * D * E * F = Loot.



    Depending on what kinds of numbers one puts in there the percentage can be

    pretty small. Generally battlefield casualties are a much lower percentage

    that most people expect (20% is quite high) but it`s important to keep in

    mind that the number of casualties and prisoners taken (A & B) is for

    "destroyed" units, not a whole army, so these figures can be higher than

    they might be in some of the classic battles for which we have

    figures. It`s hard to calculate the "average" number of prisoners taken,

    or the value of equipment thrown down by a fleeing enemy since that`s not

    the kind of statistic kept very often, but less say for the sake of

    argument (and simple math) that a destroyed unit leaves 25% of it`s

    equipment on the battlefield in the form of dead soldiers, captured ones

    and discarded equipment (A + B + C). Again, the amount of unspoiled

    equipment taken from these factors is probably lower than one might expect

    since things do actually break or are damaged in battle more often than D&D

    suggests, in which players go their entire gaming lives without their

    characters wearing out so much as a pair of boots, but for the sake of

    parity, let`s let`s again go with 25%. Last, we have the amount of value

    that goes to the victorious regent. Scavengers are pretty common after a

    battle, and one can`t generally rely on skirmishers to turn in all the

    valuable goods, and there`s not a real good way of determining the

    "average" for such a thing, so let`s again go with 25%. All told, that

    comes out to a little under 4% of the value of the unit. If anyone thinks

    any of those numbers are off they can plug it in without too much trouble.



    As a percentage of the GB cost of mustering troops 4% isn`t much. It`s

    important to note that BR units are, however, undervalued in terms of the

    actual gp value of the unit`s equipment and the GB cost to muster them. If

    one were to take the actual gp value of the unit--which would exist whether

    one considers their GB cost to be a function of feudal obligation or

    not--in the case of a few of the units with expensive equipment there could

    be the potential for quite a lot of loot, particularly cavalry units. A

    unit of knights has had the value of its equipment and livestock calculated

    at well over 100,000gp according to the PHB values. At 4% that`s

    2GB. When it comes to lightly armored and equipped units, however, there`s

    probably not a lot of value there, so looting the bodies of levies would

    probably not get much value at all.



    The real money in medieval combat comes from taking hostages and getting a

    ransom for them, hence the term "a king`s ransom" to describe a whole lot

    of cash. That, however, is probably better left up to a case by case basis

    since it is by definition an individual affair.... Though I think someone

    once proposed a value for ransom based on character level, which sounds

    like a good guideline for approximating such a thing. 100gp/level IIRC.



    Gary

  4. #34
    Senior Member Trithemius's Avatar
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    Tssarion:

    > > My point is that if we do salvage and pillage from the dead HERE in

    > > this world why is it any different in another fantasy or not?



    Kenneth, in reply:

    > Here is one example. The spirits of the dead resent it. When the dead

    > have items stolen from them, they may haunt the theives, or they might

    > haunt their kin to avenge the wrong. Why did Hamlet`s ghost come back

    > and speak with Hamlet? Why did the Spectral Scion come back in the

    > adventure in the Rjurik Highlands book?



    Also one should consider the idea that bloody battles where lots of "deathly

    energies" are released can blight the land and permit the Evanescence (no, not

    that awful band...) to weaken. If this occurs, the dead rise and, in most cases

    I would presume, do awful things to people that are in the process of looting

    them.



    Clearly, in BR, the spirits of the dead are more prone to getting up and

    shambling about. I would expect that prohibitions against looting the dead in

    Cerilian cultures are backed up by a lot of really good practical reasons.



    --

    John Machin

    (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

    -----------------------------------------------------

    "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

    -----------------------------------------------------

    - Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.
    John 'Trithemius' Machin
    The Other John From Dunedin (now in Canberra)
    "Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

  5. #35
    Senior Member
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    > Also one should consider the idea that bloody battles where lots of

    > "deathly

    > energies" are released can blight the land and permit the Evanescence

    > (no, not

    > that awful band...) to weaken. If this occurs, the dead rise and, in

    > most cases

    > I would presume, do awful things to people that are in the process of

    > looting

    > them.



    If there was even the slightest chance that the Evanescence band was

    going to rise up, as a midieval soldier I might be disuaded against

    robbing the dead. : )



    Maybe this should be a new awnsheigh that appears at the sites of

    massive death and carnage and greed... Damn, where`s Gary when you

    really need him?



    --Lord Rahvin
    NOTE: Messages posted by Birthright-L are automatically inserted posts originating from the mailing list linked to the forum.

  6. #36
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 08:49 AM 1/23/2004 -0800, Lord Rahvin wrote:



    >If there was even the slightest chance that the Evanescence band was

    >going to rise up, as a midieval soldier I might be disuaded against

    >robbing the dead. : )

    >

    >Maybe this should be a new awnsheigh that appears at the sites of

    >massive death and carnage and greed... Damn, where`s Gary when you

    >really need him?



    The Evanescence? Now I have to figure out how to portray "a slight

    glowing" in my BP system....



    I`m still working on my Death: the Final Adventure expansion of BR

    cosmology and the Shadow World that does cover this kind of thing. It

    looks like that`s going to have to be it`s own little separate text from

    what I had initially planned, which was to put all these new awnshegh,

    ershegh and SW creatures together into a single doc. Of course, I *could*

    mash it all together into a single opus with the "D:tFA" stuff as a

    chapter... maybe that`s the way to go.



    Gary

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