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Thread: Looting Fallen Units
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01-23-2004, 11:01 AM #31
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I posted this thread a while ago. Every now and then it deserves a revist, IMO, to help us all stay focused.
Until recently I had not noticed any disrespect in this thread, just open and frank discussions and many historical references.
Anyway check out the thread, we all could use a refresh.
http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...showtopic=1848Duane Eggert
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01-24-2004, 05:04 PM #32
----- Original Message -----
From: "tsarrion" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 12:50 PM
> My point is that if we do salvage and pillage from the dead HERE in
> this world why is it any different in another fantasy or not?
Here is one example. The spirits of the dead resent it. When the dead have
items stolen from them, they may haunt the theives, or they might haunt
their kin to avenge the wrong. Why did Hamlet`s ghost come back and speak
with Hamlet? Why did the Spectral Scion come back in the adventure in the
Rjurik Highlands book?
> how many of these painting or ancient momentos were looted
> from the ancient pyramids or greece?
The objects from the pyramids especially are often associated with a curse.
Sometimes with the mummy animating to protect his stuff. In a fantasy game
this can be real, not just legend or superstition.
I am far, far more inclined to take the old legends and superstions as the
point of view for my game`s reality than I am my own interpreation of
reality as a player. That`s why its *fantasy* role playing.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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01-24-2004, 05:04 PM #33
Even in a magical world in which people have not the fear of reprisal from
the dead alone, but the reality of reprisal from the dead in the form of
very real fantastic creatures, the question is not IMO whether or not
people would loot the bodies of the fallen after a battle. Of course they
would, ghosts or no ghosts. It`s too tempting, too near, the value to
high, and the desire for trophies is too strong to be ignored.
The question is how much can a regent expect to gain from defeating units
at the large scale combat level of BR? As I see it, there are several
factors in such a consideration:
A. The number of dead soldiers left on the battlefield (as opposed to
them being carried off by their compatriots or their mounts) when a unit is
defeated whose equipment can be looted.
B. The number of captured soldiers when a unit is defeated whose
equipment will be confiscated.
C. The amount of equipment left on the battlefield by a fleeing enemy.
D. The percentage of the equipment that is salvageable. ie. breakage.
E. The percentage of the equipment that is actually found (vs lost
forever among the weeds or buried with the dead.)
F. The percentage of that salvageable equipment that makes its way into
the hands of the victorious regent to be turned into GB (Finance action) or
to use to equip for his own troops (as opposed to that percentage that is
stolen by scavengers or otherwise lost.)
One thing to note about the above list: Only #1 is going to provoke fear of
spiritual reprisal, even if one were to consider such fear greater than the
rewards of . There are still going to be captured soldiers or equipment
left on the field that can be taken by a victorious army, so whether or not
one thinks that looting the dead is an issue that`s only part of where the
value of looting equipment after units are defeated might come from.
Anyway, all told several of the above factors represent fractions for an
expression of the overall value of the units. Value of "destroyed" unit`s
equipment * (A + B + C) * D * E * F = Loot.
Depending on what kinds of numbers one puts in there the percentage can be
pretty small. Generally battlefield casualties are a much lower percentage
that most people expect (20% is quite high) but it`s important to keep in
mind that the number of casualties and prisoners taken (A & B) is for
"destroyed" units, not a whole army, so these figures can be higher than
they might be in some of the classic battles for which we have
figures. It`s hard to calculate the "average" number of prisoners taken,
or the value of equipment thrown down by a fleeing enemy since that`s not
the kind of statistic kept very often, but less say for the sake of
argument (and simple math) that a destroyed unit leaves 25% of it`s
equipment on the battlefield in the form of dead soldiers, captured ones
and discarded equipment (A + B + C). Again, the amount of unspoiled
equipment taken from these factors is probably lower than one might expect
since things do actually break or are damaged in battle more often than D&D
suggests, in which players go their entire gaming lives without their
characters wearing out so much as a pair of boots, but for the sake of
parity, let`s let`s again go with 25%. Last, we have the amount of value
that goes to the victorious regent. Scavengers are pretty common after a
battle, and one can`t generally rely on skirmishers to turn in all the
valuable goods, and there`s not a real good way of determining the
"average" for such a thing, so let`s again go with 25%. All told, that
comes out to a little under 4% of the value of the unit. If anyone thinks
any of those numbers are off they can plug it in without too much trouble.
As a percentage of the GB cost of mustering troops 4% isn`t much. It`s
important to note that BR units are, however, undervalued in terms of the
actual gp value of the unit`s equipment and the GB cost to muster them. If
one were to take the actual gp value of the unit--which would exist whether
one considers their GB cost to be a function of feudal obligation or
not--in the case of a few of the units with expensive equipment there could
be the potential for quite a lot of loot, particularly cavalry units. A
unit of knights has had the value of its equipment and livestock calculated
at well over 100,000gp according to the PHB values. At 4% that`s
2GB. When it comes to lightly armored and equipped units, however, there`s
probably not a lot of value there, so looting the bodies of levies would
probably not get much value at all.
The real money in medieval combat comes from taking hostages and getting a
ransom for them, hence the term "a king`s ransom" to describe a whole lot
of cash. That, however, is probably better left up to a case by case basis
since it is by definition an individual affair.... Though I think someone
once proposed a value for ransom based on character level, which sounds
like a good guideline for approximating such a thing. 100gp/level IIRC.
Gary
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01-24-2004, 05:04 PM #34
Tssarion:
> > My point is that if we do salvage and pillage from the dead HERE in
> > this world why is it any different in another fantasy or not?
Kenneth, in reply:
> Here is one example. The spirits of the dead resent it. When the dead
> have items stolen from them, they may haunt the theives, or they might
> haunt their kin to avenge the wrong. Why did Hamlet`s ghost come back
> and speak with Hamlet? Why did the Spectral Scion come back in the
> adventure in the Rjurik Highlands book?
Also one should consider the idea that bloody battles where lots of "deathly
energies" are released can blight the land and permit the Evanescence (no, not
that awful band...) to weaken. If this occurs, the dead rise and, in most cases
I would presume, do awful things to people that are in the process of looting
them.
Clearly, in BR, the spirits of the dead are more prone to getting up and
shambling about. I would expect that prohibitions against looting the dead in
Cerilian cultures are backed up by a lot of really good practical reasons.
--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
-----------------------------------------------------
- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.John 'Trithemius' Machin
The Other John From Dunedin (now in Canberra)
"Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius
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01-24-2004, 05:04 PM #35
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> Also one should consider the idea that bloody battles where lots of
> "deathly
> energies" are released can blight the land and permit the Evanescence
> (no, not
> that awful band...) to weaken. If this occurs, the dead rise and, in
> most cases
> I would presume, do awful things to people that are in the process of
> looting
> them.
If there was even the slightest chance that the Evanescence band was
going to rise up, as a midieval soldier I might be disuaded against
robbing the dead. : )
Maybe this should be a new awnsheigh that appears at the sites of
massive death and carnage and greed... Damn, where`s Gary when you
really need him?
--Lord RahvinNOTE: Messages posted by Birthright-L are automatically inserted posts originating from the mailing list linked to the forum.
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01-24-2004, 05:04 PM #36
At 08:49 AM 1/23/2004 -0800, Lord Rahvin wrote:
>If there was even the slightest chance that the Evanescence band was
>going to rise up, as a midieval soldier I might be disuaded against
>robbing the dead. : )
>
>Maybe this should be a new awnsheigh that appears at the sites of
>massive death and carnage and greed... Damn, where`s Gary when you
>really need him?
The Evanescence? Now I have to figure out how to portray "a slight
glowing" in my BP system....
I`m still working on my Death: the Final Adventure expansion of BR
cosmology and the Shadow World that does cover this kind of thing. It
looks like that`s going to have to be it`s own little separate text from
what I had initially planned, which was to put all these new awnshegh,
ershegh and SW creatures together into a single doc. Of course, I *could*
mash it all together into a single opus with the "D:tFA" stuff as a
chapter... maybe that`s the way to go.
Gary
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