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  1. #1
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    What is the value of the weapons armor etc of destroyed units?

    I want to know abouthow much salvage my players should be able to get from a battlefield.

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "MJH" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 10:11 PM





    > What is the value of the weapons armor etc of destroyed units? I want

    > to know abouthow much salvage my players should be able to get from a

    > battlefield.



    Traditionally the value of coin was greater than weapon and armor on

    destroyed units. Scavaganing the dead after a battle (generally in the

    middle of the night before a mass burial takes place) has focused on what

    the soldiers carried in pay, not on their weapons and armor. In some cases,

    the winners of battle were much more poorly equipt than the winners and

    would scavange for gear, but even there the amount of usable equipment is

    low. Finally, the soldiers generally have rights to any gear that is found

    on the dead while the commander has rights to supply wagons capured. So, I

    would recoment focusing on captured supplies (could include the armies

    treasury for pay and supply) and not bother with the salvage of gear. Gear

    would probabaly value at around 1% of its original value. This represents

    the fact that most of it has no value, but some of it retains some value.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  3. #3
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    One other thing that - in the real world - affected the face and real value of equipment, mostly that of arms and especially armour, was the fact that it was pretty much broken up during the battle. I am still working on building a system that will reproduce the real world, with armour providing a small armour bonus on Defence, using a system similar to Wheel of Time, where armour would stack with Defence scores, though, and also grant one or two ratings of damage reduction (like "chainmail: AB +2, DR 5/piercing"). In such a system, just like in the real world, suits of armour and weapons would be the first to break after too much use and little repair.

  4. #4
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "RaspK_FOG" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 1:54 AM





    > I am still working on building a system that will reproduce the real

    world,

    > with armour providing a small armour bonus on Defence, using a system

    > similar to Wheel of Time, where armour would stack with Defence scores,

    > though, and also grant one or two ratings of damage reduction



    My calculation goes like this:

    AC=10+armor bonus+shield bonus+class bonus+Dex mod+size mod



    Armor Bonus is modified and Class Bonus is new.



    Armor Bonus:

    Light Armor has a bonus of +2

    Medium Armor has a bonus of +3

    Heavy Armor has a bonus of +4



    Class Bonus:

    Classes who recieve no armor proficiency get a Class Bonus of +0

    Classes who recieve light armor proficency get a Class Bonus of +1

    Classes who recieve med armor proficiency get a Class Bonus of +2

    Classes who recieve hvy armor proficiency get a Class Bonus of +3



    Whenever the BAB table gives you an additional attack, your Class Bonus to

    AC is modified by +1. So, no matter what your class, when your BAB goes to

    +6/+1,

    you get an AC bonus. And, again at +11/+6/+1, and so forth.



    In addition:

    Light Armor has no damage reduction

    Medium Armor has -/1 damage reduction

    Heavy Armor has -/2 damage reduction



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  5. #5
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    I generally think Kenneth&#39;s suggested rules look usable and well thought out. My only major problem with them are the even greater advantage one gets from multiclassing for one fighter leve gives you. Now just about every wizard (or other charater really) will take that level to gain a quick +3 bonus to defense.

    As an expansion to these rules, would you make magic aromour always increase the AC, or could some types increas the DR as well? And what is your take on mithril and other materials in this system?

    Cheers,
    Don E

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    Kenneth Gauck schrieb:

    > ----- Original Message -----

    > From: "MJH" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    > Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 10:11 PM

    ...

    > Traditionally the value of coin was greater than weapon and armor on

    > destroyed units. Scavaganing the dead after a battle (generally in the

    > middle of the night before a mass burial takes place) has focused on what

    > the soldiers carried in pay, not on their weapons and armor. In some cases,

    > the winners of battle were much more poorly equipt than the winners



    Hä? ;-)



    > and would scavange for gear, but even there the amount of usable equipment is

    > low. Finally, the soldiers generally have rights to any gear that is found

    > on the dead while the commander has rights to supply wagons capured. So, I

    > would recoment focusing on captured supplies (could include the armies

    > treasury for pay and supply) and not bother with the salvage of gear. Gear

    > would probabaly value at around 1% of its original value. This represents

    > the fact that most of it has no value, but some of it retains some value.

    > Kenneth Gauck

    > kgauck@mchsi.com



    One source where equipment in the number of an army unit could be found

    is in the "King of the Giantdowns" adventure. There old weapons and

    armours are found in a secret place within a tomb.



    The text there said:

    "On the shelves across the room rest enough weapons and armour

    (predominantly swords, spears, shields, and leather armour) to equip an

    entire unit of infantery in the old Rjurik style. These weapons have

    been wrapped in and protected by the elements by oilskins and ancient

    druidic magic. If a regent mustered a levy, irregular, infantery or

    similar unit (DM´s call) and supplied his troops with these weapons, he

    could cut the mustering cost in half. Of course, the nearly 200 complete

    sets of armour and weapons here cannot be easily transported by a small

    party of adventurers."



    So the entire equipment of a unit in good, preserved condition would be

    only 1 or 2 GB or 2000 to 4000 gp. The equipment of a unit after a

    battle would be in much less good condition.

    bye

    Michael

  7. #7
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    Kenneth Gauck schrieb:

    > ----- Original Message -----

    > From: "RaspK_FOG" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 1:54 AM

    >>I am still working on building a system that will reproduce the real

    > world,

    >>with armour providing a small armour bonus on Defence, using a system

    >>similar to Wheel of Time, where armour would stack with Defence scores,

    >>though, and also grant one or two ratings of damage reduction

    >

    > My calculation goes like this:

    > AC=10+armor bonus+shield bonus+class bonus+Dex mod+size mod

    > Armor Bonus is modified and Class Bonus is new.

    > Armor Bonus:

    > Light Armor has a bonus of +2

    > Medium Armor has a bonus of +3

    > Heavy Armor has a bonus of +4

    > Class Bonus:

    > Classes who recieve no armor proficiency get a Class Bonus of +0

    > Classes who recieve light armor proficency get a Class Bonus of +1

    > Classes who recieve med armor proficiency get a Class Bonus of +2

    > Classes who recieve hvy armor proficiency get a Class Bonus of +3

    > Whenever the BAB table gives you an additional attack, your Class Bonus to

    > AC is modified by +1. So, no matter what your class, when your BAB goes to

    > +6/+1,

    > you get an AC bonus. And, again at +11/+6/+1, and so forth.

    > In addition:

    > Light Armor has no damage reduction

    > Medium Armor has -/1 damage reduction

    > Heavy Armor has -/2 damage reduction

    > Kenneth Gauck

    > kgauck@mchsi.com



    That make heavy armour and medium armour better. But is that in any way

    still balanced? In the 3.0 rules the only thing that generally balanced

    the use of light and medium/heavy armour were the speed the character

    had (and in some characterclasses like Barbarian/Ranger/Rogue the lost

    special abilitys in heavier armour) from 30 to 20.



    So will in your campaign anyone that can afford it run around in Full

    Plate Mail because it gives the ultimate protection without suffering

    any further penalties like reduced mobility or perhaps reduced BAB due

    to problems of moving? Or did you introduce some system of fatigue for

    fighting in heavy armour, so that a character in light armour not only

    is able to outrun a character in heavy armour, but also in the long run

    will still be fighting when the platearmoured fighter will drop due to

    fatigue. As an example I would see the battle of Saladin against the

    crusaders which name I don´t remember now. Something with horns of

    Hattin? where the knights lost much of their abiltiy to fight due to the

    suns heat and lack of water.

    bye

    Michael

  8. #8
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "Don E" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 7:07 AM





    > My only major problem with them are the even greater advantage one

    > gets from multiclassing for one fighter leve gives you. Now just about

    > every wizard (or other charater really) will take that level to gain a

    quick

    > +3 bonus to defense.



    The class bonus to AC (like other class features) only apply to character

    who start in that class. So a character would have to consider whether they

    want to start with a fighter`s starting package - martial weapons, simple

    weapons, heavy armor, shields, the +3 AC bonus and full Fort save, but give

    up the wizards starting package no familiar, no scribe scroll, and only a +1

    Will save; or do it the other way around and get the scribe scroll feat,

    summon familiar, the full Will save, proficency with club, dagger, heavy and

    light crossbows, quarterstaff, and the +0 AC bonus, and then become a

    fighter and get only the bonus fighter feat and +1 Fort bonus.



    > As an expansion to these rules, would you make magic aromour always

    > increase the AC, or could some types increas the DR as well? And what

    > is your take on mithril and other materials in this system?



    I think its a nice flexibility to be able to increase AC bonus and/or DR.

    Mithral gets a good range of bonuses as it is, with the armor counting as

    one grader lighter, and the increased Dex bonus and reduced arcane spell

    failure. For adamantine, I give light armor a DR of 1/-, medium an

    additional +1 AC bonus, and heavy and additional +2 AC.



    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>

    Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 7:40 AM





    > So will in your campaign anyone that can afford it run around in Full

    > Plate Mail because it gives the ultimate protection without suffering

    > any further penalties like reduced mobility or perhaps reduced BAB due

    > to problems of moving? Or did you introduce some system of fatigue for

    > fighting in heavy armour, so that a character in light armour not only

    > is able to outrun a character in heavy armour, but also in the long run

    > will still be fighting when the platearmoured fighter will drop due to

    > fatigue.



    I was only covering the AC formula. The Dex maximum and armor check

    penalties, arcane failure, &c are all still in place. As for fatigue, part

    of what makes the heavy armor proficiency what it is is the ability to get

    along in the armor. Well made plate armor is actually better distributed

    and more comfortable running and jumping than chain mail (medium) or a chain

    shirt (light). As far as running speed, I don`t reduce speed for armor, but

    refer to the total encumberance of the character, except for the tripling of

    the running speed in heaby armor. Fighting in heavy armor is not

    additionaly fatiguing if that is what you have practiced doing.



    > As an example I would see the battle of Saladin against the

    > crusaders which name I don´t remember now. Something with

    > horns of Hattin? where the knights lost much of their abiltiy to

    > fight due to the suns heat and lack of water.



    I think what worked against the knights was the heat and the lack of water.

    These problems will continue to effect troops from the maritime climate of

    western Europe today. Had the fighting taken place in Niederbayern or

    Limburg, the climate would have favored the Germans, English, and French

    knights, especially in winter. While the combination of heat and heavy

    armor might effect an Anuirean in Binsada faster than an Anuirean in light

    armor, I would not penalize the Khinasi fighter in heavy armor for the heat.

    Part of his practice and training have been to prepare him to operate under

    such conditions. This argues for climate effects to endurance more than

    armor effects.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  9. #9
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    Kenneth Gauck schrieb:

    ...

    > I was only covering the AC formula. The Dex maximum and armor check

    > penalties, arcane failure, &c are all still in place. As for fatigue, part

    > of what makes the heavy armor proficiency what it is is the ability to get

    > along in the armor. Well made plate armor is actually better distributed

    > and more comfortable running and jumping than chain mail (medium) or a chain

    > shirt (light). As far as running speed, I don`t reduce speed for armor, but

    > refer to the total encumberance of the character, except for the tripling of

    > the running speed in heaby armor. Fighting in heavy armor is not

    > additionaly fatiguing if that is what you have practiced doing.



    >>As an example I would see the battle of Saladin against the

    >>crusaders which name I don´t remember now. Something with

    >>horns of Hattin? where the knights lost much of their abiltiy to

    >>fight due to the suns heat and lack of water.

    >

    > I think what worked against the knights was the heat and the lack of water.

    > These problems will continue to effect troops from the maritime climate of

    > western Europe today. Had the fighting taken place in Niederbayern or

    > Limburg, the climate would have favored the Germans, English, and French

    > knights, especially in winter. While the combination of heat and heavy

    > armor might effect an Anuirean in Binsada faster than an Anuirean in light

    > armor, I would not penalize the Khinasi fighter in heavy armor for the heat.

    > Part of his practice and training have been to prepare him to operate under

    > such conditions. This argues for climate effects to endurance more than

    > armor effects.

    > Kenneth Gauck

    > kgauck@mchsi.com



    A Khinasi fighter in Khinasi lands would be unlikely to wear full plate

    armour. However IF he would wear full plate armour and a closed helmet

    like the Anuireans than I would think that his normal adaption to the

    climate is not sufficient to endure the bakeoven environment of a

    platearmour+closed helmet for an endless amount of time.



    The rule of suffering fatigue for sleeping in armour for example is IMO

    not going far enough, there should be a something for wearing heavier

    armour while travelling - why else would we need times to climb into

    armour as from the if the character is not assumed NOT to wear the

    armour at all times?

    bye

    Michael

  10. #10
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Did the Romans wear heavy armor?



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

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