Noble PC class.

[Birthright-L]

> You know what? One of the greatest ideas presented in the Noble from

> The Wheel of Time was that at 1st level he chooses one

> cross-class skill, which is then considered to be a class-skill for

> him. Historically, nobles were known for either endeavouring on less

> lawful "things", or for having a particular hoby.



Has anyone here seen the noble class from Fading Suns d20? I only got

the briefest of glimpses from my friend`s book but the idea of a large

system of Social Feats for all the classes kind of intrigued me. If any

of you have this book, could you post some of your thoughts on these

topics? Thanks.

--Lord Rahvin

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "RaspK_FOG" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 1:57 AM





> You know what? One of the greatest ideas presented in the Noble

> from The Wheel of Time was that at 1st level he chooses one

> cross-class skill, which is then considered to be a class-skill for him.

> Historically, nobles were known for either endeavouring on less lawful

> "things", or for having a particular hoby.



This is a fairly common bonus for nobles. The AEG Courtier gets the

Versatile feat at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels. This is two skills

which count as class skills. Versatile can also be taken as a feat. This

concept also comes up in some of the political supplements in classes,

PrC`s, and feats. Sometimes it comes with a bonus to the new skill,

especially when named. For example, the Brecht nobility are often nautical,

so a feat might grant Intuit Direction and Profession (Midshipman) and

include a small bonus. There is also the Forgotten Realms feat

Cosmopolitan, which gives you one skill as a class skill and a +2 bonus. I

generally think Versatile is better, but Cosmopolitan has its place.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by geeman@Dec 21 2003, 11:36 AM
I like the idea of a skill to reflect the use of etiquette, and I agree

that it is essentially knowledge (intelligence) based rather than charisma

like perform, but doesn`t "etiquette" touch upon a whole set of ideas

regarding cultural norms in various social strata? That is, as expressed

in this thread the idea of "etiquette" seems to be only the manners and

affectations of a chivalric/ancestral noble class, but etiquette as a whole

is the ability to "pass" for a member of a certain culture and social class

in matters of dress, manner, language, etc. or, rather, not to offend any

of the people with whom one interacts for reasons having to do with social

protocol, regardless of the actual culture/social level. That gives us not

only a whole scope of the skill (sort of the social equivalent of disguise)

but also a glimpse of how it might be used in play. Social interactions of

any stripe could then be portrayed by that one skill. A disguised

character is trying to sneak past the temple guards? Etiquette

check. Trying to get passed a gang local toughs? Etiquette check.



In a broader context, 3.5 rolled innuendo into the bluff skill, but if we

use a slightly broader definition of etiquette we might see how innuendo

might be bluff, or it might be better portrayed by an etiquette skill, and

would work in a den of thieves or to understand what the matron of a noble

family is _really_ saying.



Gary

You just expressed one of the counters to your arguement here. 3.5 rolled as many skills into each as possible (or at least they tried to) so that characters could get the most out of their skill points.

Using etiquette as an interaction skill - what is the difference between diplomacy in this application? Diplomacy is about influencing people which is why bargain is a function of diplomacy in 3.5. The correllary between using diplomacy for bargaining and diplomacy for etiquette is pretty evident.

When I said that knowledge- nobility and knowledge-etiquette would provide sysnergy bonueses was actually incorrect they should provide circumstance bonuses. Synergy bonuses apply all the time, circumstance bonuses apply under certain circumstances.

Another thing there should probably be knowedge-etiquette for each type of culture. Having etiquette knowledge of elven culture would not help in a dwarven community.

[RaspK_FOG]

Another thing there should probably be knowedge-etiquette for each type of culture. Having etiquette knowledge of elven culture would not help in a dwarven community.

Sorry to say so, Irdeggman, but you are sadly mistaken there: why then not have separate Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nobility), Knowledge ([whatever]), even Perform ([whatever]) skills? "Sure, thou danceth fabulously, milady, but we, Anuirean, dance like this..." You get the picture.

Oh, one more thing: Perform isn&#39;t about making money, it&#39;s about making an artistic expression, which makes it different from some artistic Craft skills, like Craft (calligraphy) and Perform (tea ceremony) (both found in Oriental Adventures). If you ask me, grouping Craft skills in the manner Perform was done is a good idea, as I have realised myself. For example, one could have 13 ranks in Craft (metalworking), with the following proficiencies: metallurgy, (goldworking), (silverworking), (copperworking), (bronzeworking), (brassworking), ringcasting, minting, chain casting, smelting, molding, and welding.

If you do want to go with separate Knowledge skills, I suggest you take it one step further, doing the same with other skills, like Knowledge (nobility and royalty) - elvish, dwarven, halfling, Anuirean, Brecht, Khinasi, and so on.

I hope you like the idea, and it certainly is based on 3.5e rules. :P

[kgauck]

Looking at the guide lines for Bardic Knowledge, common knowledge is a DC 10

and uncommon knowledge is a DC 20. Using that guide, asking an Anuirean who

inhabits courtly circles how to dance an Anuirean ductia is a DC 10. Asking

the same Anuirean courtier how to dance a Brecht Niedrigerschritt would be a

DC 20. I can modify the DC up or down 5 if I suspect a greater or lessor

familiarity. Likewise with elves and dwarves, which I would regard as

obscure for most humans (DC 25). Rather than having different skills, I

apply a modifier.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Dec 23 2003, 03:05 AM

Another thing there should probably be knowedge-etiquette for each type of culture. Having etiquette knowledge of elven culture would not help in a dwarven community.

Sorry to say so, Irdeggman, but you are sadly mistaken there: why then not have separate Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nobility), Knowledge ([whatever]), even Perform ([whatever]) skills? "Sure, thou danceth fabulously, milady, but we, Anuirean, dance like this..." You get the picture.

This was based, again on the Alternity rules which have etiquette - specific culture (i.e., one for each type of culture). I was wrong in my original statement concerning Alternity and the etiquette skill. It is a personality skill (Charisma in D&D) but it does work the same way as I was infering though - it can&#39;t be used untrained, there is a specific culture for each type of etiquette and ranks in etiquette give bonuses to the diplomacy checks being made for the specific culture {sounds much more like a knowledge skill to me in functionality}.

You are right about perform, but the reasoning is still sound for why etiquette shouldn&#39;t be a perform skill - for the same reasons as you list for what perform is about -artistic expression.

In 3rd ed perform had a form of performance per rank (only one skill check for all of the types of performance). In 3.5 they "fixed" this by making perform function more like craft skills, each type of performance is its own skill and ranks in that type of performance don&#39;t apply to other types.

[RaspK_FOG]

I am happy to realise we understand each other, Irdeggman.

As for your suggestion, I wholeheartedly agree, Kenneth; I was just suggesting something for those who thought that such a way would be best.

[Vallariel]

I just got the Nobles Handbook from Green Ronin, and it is really worth a read. It has ideas for your noble character (nothing really new here) and some really interesting idea&#39;s on noble houses. (Really called House Avan and some of the other BR families to my mind).
Has a section on duelling. A section on handling followers.
63 pages of goodness&#33;
LOL&#33;