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Thread: Azrai`s Alignment.
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12-11-2003, 02:42 PM #1
Was Azrai lawful evil, neutral evil or chaotic evil? What do you guys think?
Kriesha and Belenik, who were his closest followers and absorbed the most
of his bloodline, are lawful evil and chaotic evil respectively. The
Gorgon is apparently #3 on the list of Azrai`s followers, and is lawful
evil. In general, however, the awnsheghlien would seem to have a pretty
even spread across the law-chaos line.
I`m curious about this because I`m playing around with some ideas on how to
reflect the corrupting affect of Azrai`s bloodline on scions as they level
up, and one of the effects is that a character can have his alignment
change. Some awnsheghlien would appear to have had alignment shifts due to
their transformation. Rhoubhe is the one that has the most obvious
descriptive text outlining the change, but there are other notably unusual
changes:
1. The alignment of Justina Heulough/Banshegh changes from chaotic good to
chaotic evil during her nocturnal forays.
2. The White Witch`s illusions might mask her alignment rather than
actually change it, but the description of that character would seem to
indicate she actually becomes lawful good while in her beauteous form.
3. The Hydra is based on an animal, but has become chaotic neutral (where
other animal based awnsheghlien like the Boar or the Wolf remain neutral.)
4. The Leviathan was either based on a monster that was neutral (evil) or
shifted to neutral with evil tendencies due to his transformation.
5. The alignment change of the Manticore, of course, was dramatic and cost
him his paladinhood.
Thoughts?
Gary
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12-11-2003, 02:54 PM #2
IMO Azrai is true evil (neutral evil), because his blood created two in alignment completely different gods: Kriesha (lawful evil) and Belinik (chaotic evil). This is only possible, if the "source deity" is neutral evil...
May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!
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12-11-2003, 04:30 PM #3
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Off hand I'd go with Ariadne's assumption but for the Book of Regency which describes the path towards evil.
pg 26 "The blood (of Azrai) tugs at them tempting them to evil and chaotic deeds - at first subtley, then strongly."
It then goes into examples of the types of 'rewards' that the blood of Azrai may give to scions who follow the evil and/or chaotic path.
It would appear that Azrai would then have been chaotic evil based on this disposition.Duane Eggert
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12-11-2003, 07:48 PM #4
Regardless of what the BoR says, I think Neutral Evil agrees with the actual pre-Desimaar story material - how would it be in-character for a CE god to sway an entire empire beneath his grasp, subtly decieve and manipulate the Vos, elves, and humanoids into his camp, and in general act in such cunning and premeditated ways? These just don't sit right with a chaotic god - I think if there is but one evil god in a world then Neutral Evil is most fitting for him. Here he has full flexibility and the ability to sway and maipulate the full range of evildoers, and even those who don't think they are evil. "True" evil is indeed fitting for Azrai.
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12-12-2003, 10:28 AM #5
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Originally posted by Osprey@Dec 11 2003, 02:48 PM
Regardless of what the BoR says, I think Neutral Evil agrees with the actual pre-Desimaar story material - how would it be in-character for a CE god to sway an entire empire beneath his grasp, subtly decieve and manipulate the Vos, elves, and humanoids into his camp, and in general act in such cunning and premeditated ways? These just don't sit right with a chaotic god - I think if there is but one evil god in a world then Neutral Evil is most fitting for him. Here he has full flexibility and the ability to sway and maipulate the full range of evildoers, and even those who don't think they are evil. "True" evil is indeed fitting for Azrai.
I agree chaotic alignments don't lend themselves to good rulership and chaotic societies tend to fall apart rather quickly and remain very unstable when they are in effect. But being able to be a good and effective ruler and wanting to be one aren't necessissarly contrary statements. Azrai "wanted" to control the world, this doesn't mean he could have been effective at it.Duane Eggert
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12-12-2003, 10:34 AM #6
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Originally posted by Ariadne@Dec 11 2003, 09:54 AM
IMO Azrai is true evil (neutral evil), because his blood created two in alignment completely different gods: Kriesha (lawful evil) and Belinik (chaotic evil). This is only possible, if the "source deity" is neutral evil...
Avani (LN) - Erik (NN) yields Laerme (CG)
Haelyn (LG) - Nesirie (NG) yields Cuiricean (CG)
Sera (CN) - Ruornil (NN) yields Eloele (CN(E) {what's up with that alignment? either you are evil or you are not this wasn't Planescape with multiple phased alignments})
If one source (mostly listed as the primary one in the case of Haelyn) is lawful then how can the result be chaotic?
And in the case of Laerme neither part of her alignment matches any of her parents parts.Duane Eggert
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12-12-2003, 01:00 PM #7Originally posted by irdeggman@Dec 12 2003, 11:34 AM
Avani (LN) - Erik (NN) yields Laerme (CG)
Haelyn (LG) - Nesirie (NG) yields Cuiricean (CG)
Sera (CN) - Ruornil (NN) yields Eloele (CN(E) {what's up with that alignment? either you are evil or you are not this wasn't Planescape with multiple phased alignments})
If one source (mostly listed as the primary one in the case of Haelyn) is lawful then how can the result be chaotic?
And in the case of Laerme neither part of her alignment matches any of her parents parts.. They aren't exactely of your opinion every time, are they?
Haelyn + Nesirie => Cuiraécen (good is equal)
Sera + Ruornil => Eloele (If you ignore this exotic alignment description: neutral is equal)
Avani + Erik => Laerme (OK, the child learned how to behave right)
BTW, I think Eloele got this confusing alignment, because her home plane is Pandemonium (2nd lair???, whatever). This is the same plane like Belinik lives on, chaotic and part of the lower planes (if I'm right). So maybe her alignment differs from neutral to evil randomly like this plane differs from true chaotic to chaotic evil...
Well, curious explanation, but a try...May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!
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12-12-2003, 01:17 PM #8
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Originally posted by Ariadne@Dec 12 2003, 08:00 AM
Yeah, but there deities have children . Those IMO can be of slightly different alignment (but most are equal at least in one axis ). It is the same like having children yourself. They aren't exactely of your opinion every time, are they?
Haelyn + Nesirie => Cuiraécen (good is equal)
Sera + Ruornil => Eloele (If you ignore this exotic alignment description: neutral is equal)
Avani + Erik => Laerme (OK, the child learned how to behave right)
This isn't the same as having a cleric that derives powers from a deity, these are separate divine beings. The example of children having different alignments is a pretty good one IMO and applies to Belnik and Kreisha arising as deities from the death of Azrai.Duane Eggert
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12-12-2003, 02:27 PM #9
At 02:17 PM 12/12/2003 +0100, Irdeggman wrote:
>Originally Posted by Ariadne,Dec 12 2003, 08:00 AM
>
> This isn`t the same as having a cleric that derives powers from a deity,
> these are separate divine beings. The example of children having
> different alignments is a pretty good one IMO and applies to Belnik and
> Kreisha arising as deities from the death of Azrai.
Birthright has always been more "liberal" when it comes to alignment than
is typical in D&D settings. The priests of the various gods can have
pretty widely disparate alignments, paladins didn`t necessarily have to be
lawful good, etc. Sometimes those things seem to be editing errors, but
others were clearly intentional. It seems logical that the offspring of
the gods would also vary from the parents using such a system--even if one
didn`t assume that their divine nature already subsumes something like
alignment, that is. Being the "god of" something is probably more of an
allegiance than being aligned to the law/chaos--good/evil system. That is,
a god`s dedication to war is probably more significant than his dedication
to chaos or goodness, and issues of alignment should probably be relaxed a
bit for a being with such an emphasis.
The characters that elevated to godhood are probably immune to the
"corrupting" influence of Azrai`s bloodline, having their own issues to
deal with, and the offspring of the gods probably take on portfolios that
are more closely linked to their parents` portfolios rather than their
alignments.
Gary
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12-13-2003, 06:53 PM #10
At 08:48 PM 12/11/2003 +0100, Osprey wrote:
>Regardless of what the BoR says, I think Neutral Evil agrees with the
>actual pre-Desimaar story material - how would it be in-character for a CE
>god to sway an entire empire beneath his grasp, subtly decieve and
>manipulate the Vos, elves, and humanoids into his camp, and in general act
>in such cunning and premeditated ways? These just don`t sit right with a
>chaotic god - I think if there is but one evil god in a world then Neutral
>Evil is most fitting for him. Here he has full flexibility and the
>ability to sway and maipulate the full range of evildoers, and even those
>who don`t think they are evil. "True" evil is indeed fitting
>for Azrai.
What about Neutral Evil (chaotic) as an alignment for Azrai?
I noted in a previous post that what I`m thinking of doing is coming up
with a little system of reflecting the corrupting influence of Azrai`s
bloodline by doing things like having scions of Azrai make a will save when
they level up in order to avoid having to either take a level as an
awnshegh or have their alignment change, possibly both. Azrai`s actual
personal alignment might in that context be secondary to a rather odd
distinction: Azrai himself might have been LE or NE, but his derivation
affects humans (and others) by making them CE. It is, after all, his
corrupting influence that I`m looking at portraying. Azrai himself might
have been of any evil alignment, but the corrupting aspect of his
derivation that gets passed on to scions is inherently wild and
unpredictable--which lends itself more to a chaotic interpretation. This
is evidenced by the wide variety of awnsheghlien that appear and that their
transformation can take on just about any form. Azrai`s derivation might
simply have that affect on those who have it, not because Azrai was himself
chaotic, but because the effect of the bloodline is inherently
unpredictable. It might be that the derivation doesn`t completely convey
Azrai`s alignment entirely--just an aspect or two of his total
portfolio--so the derivation of "Azrai" is, in effect, chaotic because it
is not exactly Azrai himself that is embodied by it, just his more chaotic
aspect.
Gary
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