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Thread: Chap 2 Revision

  1. #21
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>

    Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 12:23 AM





    > I`m not entirely sure about that... but I do think "buying it for

    > your heirs" is more likely: i.e. paying large bribes (lets not put

    > any nice face on it, eh?) to the parents of potential, blooded, spouses.



    This I have done outright. Wealthy up and commer seeks marriage to bankrupt

    lineage of ancient honor. The difference is that the family donating the

    bloodline still has it, and their decendents still have it, though it is

    diluted. In my dwarven campaign of Baruk-Azhik it did it to the famed house

    of Earthkore. Bain Earthkore was the Grand Judge of the realm, he tried to

    get his cousin Thraim named as marshal. Thraim`s son Ulrik ended up involved

    in the Rohrmarch civil war. But Bain`s other cousin (whose name I can`t

    find right now - how appropriate) had married money and his heirs would be

    walking around with a bloodline of 3. This last cousin`s line was the

    younger son`s of a younger son. So though his patriline was nifty, his

    mother and his grandmother had been lower nobility and without much blood.



    I am reasonably sure I have done this again in the Taelshore, but to some

    less central family.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  2. #22
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    Just for everyone`s amusement and edification on the subject, here`s an

    interesting site below. I`ve got my eye on the Barony of Castle Stewart,

    personally. £90,000 sounds like a bargain... though I`m sure once the BR

    community sees this stuff there will be an inevitable bidding war.



    http://www.baronytitles.com/forsale/



    Gary

  3. #23
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    Kenneth Gauck schrieb:



    >----- Original Message -----

    >From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    >Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 3:55 PM

    >

    >

    >

    >> Blood cannot be `bought` it must be invested or stolen. In 2nd ed

    >>it was nigh impossible for an unblooded to become blooded and

    >>almost never happened.

    >>

    >>

    >Amything can be bought. If a seller will take cash to invest you with his

    >bloodline, you have blood being sold. Its not a question of can. Certainly

    >it can happen. Its a question of will. Who will do such a thing? I say

    >next to no one, so its as good as irrelevant since it will not happen in any

    >way the players can connect with.

    >Kenneth Gauck

    >

    If in real life a kidney can be bought from a poor healthy indian for a

    sick millionaire then certainly there would be people ready to sell a

    bloodline to a high bidder. However bloodlines are much rarer than spare

    kidneys. And not only need you to have one wanting the bloodline with

    enough cash/power to get his wish, and one to give away his bloodline by

    free will and cash or by force - but in any case you also need a priest

    to cast the spell of divestiture/investiture which requires a temple

    holding and so is available to very, very few. That is from the

    game-mechanical view - however in a culture in which the divine blood of

    the gods flows through the veins of people I can see really no one who

    would sell that. Not even a starving peasant. If you consider how much

    people died in the real world for only the belief of something, then how

    could in a comparable time where the blood of the gods is known to be

    real, people act much different?



    Such a sale if willing I would compare to the movie with Liz Hurley

    "Teuflisch!" Devilish? in that a mortal human sells his soul to the devil.

    bye

    Michael

  4. #24
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    Cruelsader schrieb:



    >This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

    > You can view the entire thread at:

    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...ST&f=36&t=2132

    > Cruelsader wrote:

    > It is difficult to say how good the abilities are without testing them in actual play. Sure, they look good&#33; :) A few comments, though:

    >

    >

    ...



    > Blood Sense - the fact that scions are fairly rare and certain derivations are very rare makes this ability rather powerful. Imagine that a PC is tracking a scion with masela major: he could pinpoint her despite disguise and through normal brick walls. I suggest putting a certain limit per day (maybe 3?). This would also make the life of DM a little easier because some players tend to overuse unlimited powers and 3+ edition detection spells are often real pain for DMs.

    >

    The 2E Book of Magecraft had some spells which would sound as if they

    would block that ability, e.g. "Mask Bloodline" (2nd level) or "Disguise

    Bloodline" (5th level) illusion spells so available not only to wizards

    but also to Magicians). In addition the 3E Dungeon Masters guide

    provides on p. 109 a nice example of a "lead-lined door" which provides

    a "barrier against many detection spells". A DM could simply rule that

    the Blood Sense abiltiy can be fooled by those spells and blocked by

    mundane manners like this door and the ability would be far less powerful.



    > Courage - virtual immunity to fear effects (whatever their DC) that extends to allies seems overpowered for a minor (major) ability. Maybe the ability should give significant saving throw bonus instead?

    >

    >

    Overpowered for a major ability? Even the normal 3E Paladin gets his

    Aura of Courage which makes himself immune to fear and gives allies

    within 10 feet a +4 morale bonus on saves. Why would it be overpowered

    as a major power for you?

    bye

    Michael

  5. #25
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    Comments on ConjurerDragon comments:

    Blood sense
    There are certainly a number of ways to fool the sense. First, special spells like Mask Bloodline (which were incorporated into the first version of the playtest) can disguise blood. Also, the ability description states that it works like Detetc Magic. So, thin sheet of lead or one foot of stone etc would block it. However, few scions can cast disguising spells. Second, bloodlines are far rarer than magic. So, if you can detect a bloodline you can often pinpoint a specific individual. Most importantly, however, some players use unlimited abilities a lot. Imagine the poor DM when a player insists constantly detecting bloodlines in a city - lots of scions and barriers to take into account. In my experience the problem can simply be solved by limiting the power to certain times per day. The result is that most players save the uses to be sure that they have them when they truly need them.

    Aura of Courage
    I thought that it is overpowered because a lot of undead use fear as special attack and because I overlooked the Paladin&#39;s ability. (Don&#39;t have paladins in my campaign but a different class: holy warriors) I agree now that the ability is not overpowered for a standard 3.5.E game. My apologies for the confusion.

  6. #26
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    Originally posted by Cruelsader+Jan 27 2004, 10:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cruelsader @ Jan 27 2004, 10:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-irdeggman@Dec 11 2003, 11:51 AM
    Alright, due to the imminent issue of Dragon #315 supposed with an article on this subject and the potential OGL conflict, I thought it would be best to post this now*
    I do not read Dragon. Any comments on this article? (If the article has been discussed in these forums already , please direct me to the relevant topic.) Thank you&#33; [/b][/quote]
    I wrote up a synopsis on this article in another section of the forums.

    Dragon 315 link

  7. #27
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Cruelsader@Jan 26 2004, 03:01 PM

    * In the 2nd ed bloodline strength was measured by a numerical score: 1-100. The bloodlines were also divided into categories - tainted, minor, major, great and true. However, the categories simply illustrated the score and had no significance of their own (save a few exceptions).

    You have kept the old score system but have separated the categories. I am OK with the new concept but I find the terminology confusing. 2nd edition bloodline strength is now called bloodline score and the categories are called bloodline strength. This is somewhat misleading because bloodline score also reflects the blood&#39;s strength by determining the number of blood abilities, max RPs collected etc. It is especially confusing for those who played by the out-of-the-box 2nd ed BR rules. Also, &#39;bloodline score&#39; is a technical term: in the game world the score is likely referred to as &#39;strength of the blood&#39; (or something like this) adding to the confusion. In short, I recommend calling the current &#39;bloodline score&#39; &#39;blood strength&#39;. The new concept could be called &#39;bloodline purity&#39;. Thus, a scion with Brenna-minor-50 would be described as having strong blood but impure bloodline.
    Actually in the original material (see BR Rulebook pg 20 and the Book of Regency pg 16+) bloodline was defined exactly in the same manner as it is in the revised Chapt 2.

    Strength was a word (tainted, minor, major, great or true)

    Score was a numerical value used as a rules mechanic.

    The major difference in the BRCS is that bloodline strength now determines the level (minor, major or great) of blood abilities a scion is eligible for. This was done to be consistent with 3/3.5 and to provide some manner of measuring relative power between scions.
    Duane Eggert

  8. #28
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Alertness - 3.5. full round action is not any activity that takes one round to complete. For instance, full attack is a full round action but move + attack is not (Instead, it is a move action + a standard action).
    Good point, I&#39;ll add that full round action is a standard action and a move action.


    Blood Sense - the fact that scions are fairly rare and certain derivations are very rare makes this ability rather powerful. Imagine that a PC is tracking a scion with masela major: he could pinpoint her despite disguise and through normal brick walls. I suggest putting a certain limit per day (maybe 3?). This would also make the life of DM a little easier because some players tend to overuse unlimited powers and 3+ edition detection spells are often real pain for DMs.
    This one was an example of a created blood ability and is not a standard one.

    There is a limit listed - see the last line of the description "This ability is usable once per day."


    Charm Aura - what about neutral chracters? Can the scion use this power to detect disguised enemies? Maybe it would be easier if the ability worked as the spell? For instance, it would be possible to charm an enemy but he would get saving throw bonus. Likewise, maybe scions should not be immune but should get substantial saving throw bonus depending on the strength and purity of their blood?
    It does work exactly like the spells referenced, with the exception of DC modifier and caster level. If a character is non-hostile that covers neutral ones, I do believe. Hence all poossible categories of encounters are indeed covered. As far as scions being immune - that was how the 2nd ed ability worked.

    How can any of the spells referenced be used to detect an enemy, really. It is the non-scion&#39;s attitude at the moment the ability is used. The affected is either hostile or not.


    Divine Aura - see Charm Aura

    Same as charm aura above


    Enhanced Sense - does magical waether phenomenon hamper the vision and hearing of masela scion?
    Good point it should penetrate all weather conditions. But I don&#39;t really see magical weather phenomenon occuring all that frequently in a campaign.
    Duane Eggert

  9. #29
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Mebhaighl sense - it is not overpowered but makes DMs life difficult. I propose that the scion has to concentrate to sense casting of spells.
    This version works pretty much the same way as does the one listed in the Book of Regency. Just because a scion can sense an arcane spell being cast doesn&#39;t mean he knows from where it is coming or who is casting it.


    Poison sense - involuntary detection is tricky. The spell is instantaneous and when cast on an area detects poison within 5 foot cube. However, when this power is constantly working without concentration the area is effectively a sphere with radius of close range, i.e. much-much more powerful and also difficult for DM. I suggest that the involuntary detection works only on clearly visible creatures (such as a bystander) and objects (such as food on the table). To detect poison in an area, the scion needs to choose 5 foot cube and concentrate.
    One of the reasons that this was made a minor vice a major ability was the frequency of it being used. It should not be that common for a scion to encounter poisons. Unlike, say healing which can reasonably be expected to be used in any adventure.



    Wither touch - this seems underpowered and does not fit well into 3.5 ed. A major ability that does only d8 points of damage and d3 temporary Str damage? And a great ability that does d3 str damage, d12 points of damage + d4 damage +d2 Str damage per day? Lot of calculation but mid and high level chracters wont even notice it. OK, presumably the main power consists in an devastating ability to permanently destroy limbs (if it used against limbs). However, the concept of destroying limbs (or other organs) does not fit well into 3.5. IMO such injury would translate into permanent ability loss in DD + some penalties on certain skills. However, high level magic like greater restoration and heal should remove such afflictions.
    I think you nailed the reason that the ability is not underpowered - it requires the affected limb to be removed (preventing the spread of the withering) or have the affected one to be cured by a healing that is acapable of healing at least 25 hit points within 2d4 days or the effect is permanent.

    Let&#39;s see if Str goes to 0 then the victim lays helpless on the ground. Losing 1d8 (halved) could have devasting effect on a character, even high level ones. Warriors&#39; melee attacks are lessoned and spellcasters could actually end up laying helpless on the ground -although they probably have greater than a 4 Str, but they could end up being overburdened because they can&#39;t carry what they had before, this could also affect those in heavy armors.

    The great version requires saves every day in order to avoid increased damage.

    Blood abilities aren&#39;t supposed to provide an instant kill but rather add something to a scion&#39;s arsenal. I don&#39;t know it still seems to be on the balanced side at the moment, but I&#39;m open to changes if enough people want them.
    Duane Eggert

  10. #30
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    Originally posted by irdeggman@Jan 29 2004, 09:48 PM
    There is a limit listed - see the last line of the description "This ability is usable once per day."
    :blink: No idea how I managed to overlook it.... Sorry.

    Charm Aura - It does work exactly like the spells referenced, with the exception of DC modifier and caster level.*
    It doesn&#39;t. The spells have different range and number of targets but most importantly they do not distinguish between friends and foes. You may scare your friends and you may charm your enemies (however if you are charming an enemy and you or your allies are hostile toward him he gets saving throw bonus). According to the descirption of the blood ability, however, you may only charm non-hostile creatures and you can scare only your enemies.

    * How can any of the spells referenced be used to detect an enemy, really.* It is the non-scion&#39;s attitude at the moment the ability is used.* The affected is either hostile or not.
    Maybe it is the question of my inadequate language skill (English is not my native language). I thought that all enemies are hostile even when they pretend to be friends. So you could identify an enemy because he would be the only one to run away scared when you use the blood ability.

    * As far as scions being immune - that was how the 2nd ed ability worked.
    OK. Keeping in line with 2nd ed as much as possible is probably good idea.


    Good point it should penetrate all weather conditions. But I don&#39;t really see magical weather phenomenon occuring all that frequently in a campaign.
    Realm spells? (Ward, for instance)

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