Chap 2 Revision

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Cruelsader@Jan 26 2004, 03:01 PM

* I am not happy with the concept that 'most highborn nobles, courtiers, advisors, and government officials do not possess bloodline' This might have been the situation in early days of the empire but after 1500 years of Deismaar it seems illogical. Blood is prerequisite of effective ruling and the line between high-born nobles and rulers is vague at best. Moreover, blood is certainly prestige and it can be bought or taken by force, ie those who have power can acquire it quite easily and have motivation to do so. Therefore, I think that by HC 1524 all (significant) nobles have blood although the blood of the old (or original lines) is much stronger.

Actually this is extremely consistent with the 2nd ed info. There are supposed to be very few (relatively) blooded individuals and most of those are supposed to have weak bloodlines (i.e., Minor or Tainted).

Most of the positions described would not require a bloodline to perform effectively. Advisors, courtiers, and government officials would (in 2nd ed) not require a blood line in order to perform. Nobles could or could not - most of the lesser government officials (see Roesone PS for examples) had negligible bloodlines and held office by the whim of the Regent.

Blood cannot be 'bought' it must be invested or stolen. In 2nd ed it was nigh impossible for an unblooded to become blooded and almost never happened.

The Book of Regency has more info on how bloodlines have become weakened since Deismaar, IIRC.

Bottom line is that this has no impact on PCs and only affects NPCs. It is entirely possible for a DM to have every single noble in the area be blooded as well as all advisors, etc. This would just dilute the importance/significance of having a bloodline IMO though.

Thanks for the input though - I don't want to seem to be totally argumentative/defensive.

[Cruelsader]

It is difficult to say how good the abilities are without testing them in actual play. Sure, they look good! A few comments, though:

Alertness - 3.5. full round action is not any activity that takes one round to complete. For instance, full attack is a full round action but move + attack is not (Instead, it is a move action + a standard action).

Blood Sense - the fact that scions are fairly rare and certain derivations are very rare makes this ability rather powerful. Imagine that a PC is tracking a scion with masela major: he could pinpoint her despite disguise and through normal brick walls. I suggest putting a certain limit per day (maybe 3?). This would also make the life of DM a little easier because some players tend to overuse unlimited powers and 3+ edition detection spells are often real pain for DMs.

Charm Aura - what about neutral chracters? Can the scion use this power to detect disguised enemies? Maybe it would be easier if the ability worked as the spell? For instance, it would be possible to charm an enemy but he would get saving throw bonus. Likewise, maybe scions should not be immune but should get substantial saving throw bonus depending on the strength and purity of their blood?

Courage - virtual immunity to fear effects (whatever their DC) that extends to allies seems overpowered for a minor (major) ability. Maybe the ability should give significant saving throw bonus instead?

Divine Aura - see Charm Aura

Enhanced Sense - does magical waether phenomenon hamper the vision and hearing of masela scion?

-----I will continue once I have read other abilities------

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Cruelsader" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 2:01 PM



> I am not happy with the concept that `most highborn nobles, courtiers,

> advisors, and government officials do not possess bloodline`



As far as `highborn nobles` I will agree that they all have bloodlines. I

think the set of highborn nobles is much smaller than the set of blooded

folk. Since "highborn" are at the top, why would they, of any of these

people, lack a bloodline? Perhaps if bloodlines were more scarce, but the

number of blooded people in any place are much laregr than the number of

provinces, so the highborn all have bloodlines. Also, since I like to have

counts and jarls as a part of the game, I need them to have bloodlines.

Courtiers, advisors, and government officials are a different story. These

folks can come from all kinds of places. They have no need to wield

regency, and could come from throughout the social strata. So, I don`t

think that courtiers, advisors, and officials have bloodlines by neccesity,

though they certainly may.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 3:55 PM





> Blood cannot be `bought` it must be invested or stolen. In 2nd ed

> it was nigh impossible for an unblooded to become blooded and

> almost never happened.



Amything can be bought. If a seller will take cash to invest you with his

bloodline, you have blood being sold. Its not a question of can. Certainly

it can happen. Its a question of will. Who will do such a thing? I say

next to no one, so its as good as irrelevant since it will not happen in any

way the players can connect with.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Cruelsader]

Originally posted by irdeggman+Jan 26 2004, 10:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (irdeggman &#064; Jan 26 2004, 10:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> There are supposed to be very few (relatively) blooded individuals and most of those are supposed to have weak bloodlines (i.e., Minor or Tainted).....Bottom line is that this has no impact on PCs and only affects NPCs. It is entirely possible for a DM to have every single noble in the area be blooded as well as all advisors, etc. This would just dilute the importance/significance of having a bloodline IMO though. [/b]

I agree that it is largely a question of DM&#39;s style/vision of the world. I only mentioned it because the % of scions influences the content of rules (i.e. when scions are common quick rise of bloodline score can be expected etc) In any case, it was just a minor point.

Originally posted by irdeggman@Jan 26 2004, 10:55 PM
Actually this is extremely consistent with the 2nd ed info.

You are right I guess. Unfortunately, lot of the 2nd ed material does not make sense. I know you are in a difficult position: some people want you to stick to 2nd ed rules others want you to &#39;improve&#39; the rules. I am not asking to chance anything, just voiced my opinion.

Originally posted by irdeggman@Jan 26 2004, 10:55 PM
Most of the positions described would not require a bloodline to perform effectively. Advisors, courtiers, and government officials would (in 2nd ed) not require a blood line in order to perform. Nobles could or could not - most of the lesser government officials (see Roesone PS for examples) had negligible bloodlines and held office by the whim of the Regent.

IMHO this only seems so because of the very abstract nature of BR domain rules. Once you stop seeing only provinces, holdings and domain actions but instead see the &#39;real&#39; life that can be described (inadequately) by these rules the difference between a ruler and an official /advisor starts to blur.

<!--QuoteBegin-irdeggman@Jan 26 2004, 10:55 PM
Blood cannot be &#39;bought&#39; it must be invested or stolen. In 2nd ed it was nigh impossible for an unblooded to become blooded and almost never happened. [/quote]

I agree that it was rather difficult in the 2nd ed but everything had and has a price. (For instance, magical items were supposed to be priceless in the 2nd ed, yet they were regularly bought and sold in most games) But lets focus on the current playtest rules.

Getting bloodline is rather easy for evil characters: they simply have to murder around 10 scions. Ok, let&#39;s suppose most members of the society are reasonably moral. But then, consider a disabled penniless scion from a ruined family. He has an option of living the rest of his life as a beggar or he may give up his blood (through investiture) for, say, heal and 10, 000 gp. Would he refuse to give up his blood? Maybe but unlikely. Or another example, a non-blooded rich noble/merchant wants to get blooded. He offers 10 000 gp as a reward for a willing donor, no questions asked. How long does it take for the crime lords to organize a &#39;willing&#39; donor? Finally, I made the comment on the context of the 1500 years of development. Say we have a powerful non-blooded family and a ruler who is desperate for cash or whatever the family has. The only thing the family asks is that the ruler or one of his sons would ... and there would be blood in the next generation of the powerful family. Or the poor male can be simply charmed - not difficult at all in a magical world. Of course, it depends on the style of play but my players are mature/immoral enough to be creative and expect that they are not the sole persons in the game universe who have this trait.

[Cruelsader]

Originally posted by kgauck@Jan 27 2004, 12:06 AM
Amything can be bought. If a seller will take cash to invest you with his bloodline, you have blood being sold. Its not a question of can. it can happen. Its a question of will. Who will do such a thing? I say next to no one, so its as good as irrelevant since it will not happen in any
way the players can connect with.

I agree that players cannot easily buy bloodline (or they may not be able to buy at all, depends on the DM). But players expect the world to be consistent. If it CAN happen, it has likely happened. If the interest has been very high it has happened more often. I think the interest has been very high. But this is simply my view of the BR world.

[Trithemius]

Kenneth:

> Amything can be bought. If a seller will take cash to invest you with

> his bloodline, you have blood being sold. Its not a question of can.

> Certainly it can happen. Its a question of will. Who will do such a thing?

> I say next to no one, so its as good as irrelevant since it will not happen

> in any way the players can connect with.



I`m not entirely sure about that... but I do think "buying it for your heirs"

is more likely: i.e. paying large bribes (lets not put any nice face on it,

eh?) to the parents of potential, blooded, spouses.



--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

-----------------------------------------------------

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

[Cruelsader]

Additional comments on blood abilities:

Mebhaighl sense - it is not overpowered but makes DMs life difficult. I propose that the scion has to concentrate to sense casting of spells.

Poison sense - involuntary detection is tricky. The spell is instantaneous and when cast on an area detects poison within 5 foot cube. However, when this power is constantly working without concentration the area is effectively a sphere with radius of close range, i.e. much-much more powerful and also difficult for DM. I suggest that the involuntary detection works only on clearly visible creatures (such as a bystander) and objects (such as food on the table). To detect poison in an area, the scion needs to choose 5 foot cube and concentrate.

Wither touch - this seems underpowered and does not fit well into 3.5 ed. A major ability that does only d8 points of damage and d3 temporary Str damage? And a great ability that does d3 str damage, d12 points of damage + d4 damage +d2 Str damage per day? Lot of calculation but mid and high level chracters wont even notice it. OK, presumably the main power consists in an devastating ability to permanently destroy limbs (if it used against limbs). However, the concept of destroying limbs (or other organs) does not fit well into 3.5. IMO such injury would translate into permanent ability loss in DD + some penalties on certain skills. However, high level magic like greater restoration and heal should remove such afflictions.


I suggest something along the following lines instead:

Wither Touch

Level: major, great
Derivation: Azrai
The scion has the ability to cause living tissue to wilt away.

Major: once per week the scion may use this ability to desiccate and wither living tissue in contact. If the scion makes a successful melee touch attack the target living creature suffers 2d6 con and d6 strength ability drain. Half of this ability drain is permanent, other half is temporary. A successful Fortitude saving throw halves the ability damage. If a specific limb was touched this limb does not function properly (-2 all relevant skill checks) until all ability damage has been healed.

Great: same as major but all ability drain is permanent. In addition the victim must make fortitude save each day or suffer additional d4 points of permanent constitution loss. (A character slain due to such con loss becomes a shadow?)

--------

These were just minor issues, overall the work is excellent&#33;

[Cruelsader]

Originally posted by irdeggman@Dec 11 2003, 11:51 AM
Alright, due to the imminent issue of Dragon #315 supposed with an article on this subject and the potential OGL conflict, I thought it would be best to post this now

I do not read Dragon. Any comments on this article? (If the article has been discussed in these forums already , please direct me to the relevant topic.) Thank you&#33;

[geeman]

At 07:23 PM 1/27/2004 +1300, John Machin wrote:



> > Amything can be bought. If a seller will take cash to invest you with

> > his bloodline, you have blood being sold. Its not a question of can.

> > Certainly it can happen. Its a question of will. Who will do such a thing?

> > I say next to no one, so its as good as irrelevant since it will not happen

> > in any way the players can connect with.

>

>I`m not entirely sure about that... but I do think "buying it for your heirs"

>is more likely: i.e. paying large bribes (lets not put any nice face on it,

>eh?) to the parents of potential, blooded, spouses.



There is a long history of people with an economic advantage buying their

way into `society` and the titular class. In BR, there are a few things

that would make the practise less likely, and a few that would make it

more. For instance, the nature of having a bloodline in the first place

puts one in a position to earn more revenue by entering the domain level

yourself. Selling it makes less sense in comparison to a real world

equivalent because the real world equivalent doesn`t have the same actual

powers and affect at the domain level. Furthermore, unlike the real world

selling one`s bloodline represents leaving the ranks of the influential and

upper, upper classes. That`s very different from selling oneself in

marriage, or lending one`s prestige to someone, and makes it less likely IMO.



That`s not to say it absolutely wouldn`t happen, of course. Despite the

realities of certain characters getting stuck into situations in which they

would consider the option (economically, socially or otherwise) there is

some text here and there in the BR materials that describe the transfer of

bloodlines to worthy commoners. Generally, that text indicates that only

the Vos really adopt such a thing systematically--and it strikes me that

such a system might be less than voluntary on the part of the scions--but

we certainly have the example of Rogr Aglondier in Anuire to illustrate

that it must happen in other cultures. There are one or two other

considerations. In some particularly unpleasant circumstances, it`s

possible to imagine a family selling off the bloodline of a younger

offspring in order to get money "for the family". It`s also sensible that

a scion without heirs might consider the possibility of selling his

bloodline in his dotage to get money to retire on. Amongst lesser scions

(those with tainted or lower minor bloodlines) might be willing to sell

their bloodline.



Gary