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  1. #11
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    I`m a long-time subscriber, but I seem to get my copies of Dragon up to a

    couple weeks after other people. There`s probably a gamer at my local post

    office who intercepts my issues, so they don`t get delivered until he`s

    read `em first and carefully placed them back in the plastic....



    At 05:25 PM 12/11/2003 +0100, Benjamin wrote:



    > If you want to strengthen your bloodline the cheesy way, you buy a feat

    > called Strengthen Bloodline, which gives you +10 bloodline points. Presto!

    >

    > So any 4th level fighter, with all his free feats, can be a great

    > bloodline. Genius!



    Strengthen Bloodline isn`t a bonus fighter feat, is it?



    > Blood abilities are based on your bloodline strength. They only give

    > Alter Appearance, Animal Affinity, Battlewise, Character Reading,

    > Direction Sense, and Fear. Each one has a different effect based on

    > bloodline level, minor through great (tainted lines get nothing).



    Well, that does make bloodline strength much more significant... maybe even

    somewhat top heavy since it becomes, in effect, a single "stat" that

    modifies subsequent powers.



    > And the final thing I wonder about is the reversion to killing blow

    > through the heart to bloodtheft. It specifically says "This can

    > only be done as a coup de grace action." A killer with a lower

    > bloodline gets d6 bloodline points, a killer with higher gets 1 bloodline

    > point. And regardless of strength, the killer picks up one of the

    > victim`s bloodline abilities for free, provided the ability can be used

    > by the killer`s derivation.



    Bloodtheft is a toughie. I don`t think anyone has presented a system of

    commiting bloodtheft for D&D/D20 that really satisfies. A wonderfully

    innovative system would have been welcome, but it`s not the kind of thing

    that can be expected, so I`m inclined to cut `em a break on this one. The

    d6/1 bloodline score issue is very similar to the original system--which

    screams for a change IMO--but again I`m inclined to cut some slack on this

    one since there`s still not IMO no one has presented particularly good way

    of dealing with this aspect of bloodtheft either.



    Did they address tighmaevril in the bloodtheft section?



    Gary

  2. #12
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    Benjamin schrieb:

    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

    > You can view the entire thread at:

    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...=ST&f=2&t=2130

    >

    > Benjamin wrote:

    > OK, I`ve got Dragon #315 right here, and I`m NOT impressed.

    > It seems to me to be a half-assed attempt to bring Birthright into 3.5E. Here`s why:

    > The system for bloodline abilities, as feats, is not really well explained. You buy a feat (Bloodline) to become blooded. OK, fine. You get a bloodline score of 1. You can increase your bloodline score by doing heroic events, such as slaying a dragon to save a village, but not just to slay it (which isn`t heroic enough - clearly they never fought a Cerelian dragon). But the bloodline scores are barely mentioned in the write-up: if your bloodline goes to 11, then it becomes minor; 31 points for major; 51 points for great.

    > If you want to strengthen your bloodline the cheesy way, you buy a feat called Strengthen Bloodline, which gives you +10 bloodline points. Presto!





    > So any 4th level fighter, with all his free feats, can be a great bloodline. Genius!



    Only if the fighter feats may be spent for this bloodline feats -

    normally fighter feats may be spent only on specific list of "fighter"

    feats, not just on any feats. If not allowed then the fighter has only

    his characterlevel feats and perhaps his human feat to buy this new

    blood feats.



    Did the article mention if it is allowed?





    > If you want bloodline abilities, you have to buy them as feats. Well, your first bloodline

    ability is a free bonus feat when you buy Bloodline, but the rest of the

    powers are purchased

    feats. You can buy as many bloodlines as you want, provided you use

    feats for them. Not such

    a bad idea, really. Best one of the article.

    > Blood abilities are based on your bloodline strength. They only give Alter Appearance,

    Animal Affinity, Battlewise, Character Reading, Direction Sense, and

    Fear. Each one has a

    different effect based on bloodline level, minor through great (tainted

    lines get nothing).

    > And the final thing I wonder about is the reversion to killing blow through the heart to

    bloodtheft. It specifically says "This can only be done as a coup

    de grace action."

    A killer with a lower bloodline gets d6 bloodline points, a killer

    with higher gets 1

    bloodline point. And regardless of strength, the killer picks up one of

    the victim`s bloodline

    abilities for free, provided the ability can be used by the killer`s

    derivation.

    > OK, sorry for the disjointed rant style. I thought I`d let everyone know what the article

    says.

    > If I`m unclear, please ask for clarification.



    Mmmh, why would the Gorgon "harvest" bloodlines when he can slay ANY

    minor scion and each time earn 1 point of bloodline strenght AND can add

    a bloodability to his list if the slain scion had one fitting for the

    Gorgons Azrai line?



    I like the system of diminishing returns much better, which at some

    point yields nothing if your bloodline strenght is too high above the

    victims.

    That at least explains the need to carefuly tend your enemies so that

    they may raise their bloodlines to a point at which the Gorgon may

    benefit from it...

    bye

    Michael

  3. #13
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Benjamin@Dec 11 2003, 05:25 PM
    OK, I've got Dragon #315 right here, and I'm NOT impressed.

    It seems to me to be a half-assed attempt to bring Birthright into 3.5E. Here's why:

    The system for bloodline abilities, as feats, is not really well explained. You buy a feat (Bloodline) to become blooded. OK, fine. You get a bloodline score of 1. You can increase your bloodline score by doing heroic events, such as slaying a dragon to save a village, but not just to slay it (which isn't heroic enough - clearly they never fought a Cerelian dragon). But the bloodline scores are barely mentioned in the write-up: if your bloodline goes to 11, then it becomes minor; 31 points for major; 51 points for great.

    If you want to strengthen your bloodline the cheesy way, you buy a feat called Strengthen Bloodline, which gives you +10 bloodline points. Presto!

    So any 4th level fighter, with all his free feats, can be a great bloodline. Genius!
    Well, as Gary and Michael already said: Fighters normally can’t take those feats as bonus feats (if so it’s even worser). BUT: They can spend ALL level based feats on being blooded, so they still have a huge, unfair advantage!


    If you want bloodline abilities, you have to buy them as feats. Well, your first bloodline ability is a free bonus feat when you buy Bloodline, but the rest of the powers are purchased feats. You can buy as many bloodlines as you want, provided you use feats for them. Not such a bad idea, really. Best one of the article.
    You really think so? Pfff, one single blood ability and the rest buyed expensively with feats? Not a good idea, this would prefer fighters again! A more better idea would have been the original 2nd Ed system to roll abilities (or for free, whatever) after the bloodline strength is enhanced somehow (with feats or bloodtheft)...

    Blood abilities are based on your bloodline strength. They only give Alter Appearance, Animal Affinity, Battlewise, Character Reading, Direction Sense, and Fear. Each one has a different effect based on bloodline level, minor through great (tainted lines get nothing).
    OK. Sounds like they had no new idea here...


    And the final thing I wonder about is the reversion to killing blow through the heart to bloodtheft. It specifically says "This can only be done as a coup de grace action." A killer with a lower bloodline gets d6 bloodline points, a killer with higher gets 1 bloodline point. And regardless of strength, the killer picks up one of the victim's bloodline abilities for free, provided the ability can be used by the killer's derivation.
    Oh great! Then the period of bloodtheft after Deismaar never ended and we have to rewrite the Cerilian history...


    Generally, thanks for the quick and detailed information.
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  4. #14
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    On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Benjamin wrote:

    > So any 4th level fighter, with all his free feats, can be a great

    > bloodline. Genius!



    I`d imagine the "strengthen bloodline" feat is not on the list of fighter

    bonus feats.



    Thanks for the details.



    --

    Daniel McSorley

  5. #15
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "Benjamin" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 10:25 AM





    > You can increase your bloodline score by doing heroic events, such as

    > slaying a dragon to save a village, but not just to slay it (which

    isn`t

    > heroic enough - clearly they never fought a Cerelian dragon).



    You should not get blood score just for being a combat machine, you should

    get blood score for doing things that create political power, like saving a

    village in a heroic fashion. The village becomes instantly committed, and

    other villages will be favorably disposed. The key is the village, not the

    dragon.



    > So any 4th level fighter, with all his free feats, can be a great

    bloodline. Genius&#33;



    Does it say that these blooded feats are to be included in the list of

    fighter bonus feats? If not, fighters have just as much access to them as

    anyone else.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  6. #16
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 05:27 PM 12/11/2003 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:



    >You should not get blood score just for being a combat machine, you should

    >get blood score for doing things that create political power, like saving

    >a village in a heroic fashion. The village becomes instantly committed,

    >and other villages will be favorably disposed. The key is the village, not the

    >dragon.



    Even though I`d like to see more interaction between political and heroic

    accomplishments in BR`s RP system, I still think scope of heroic actions

    should play a part. Slaying a dragon (particularly a Cerilian one) is IMO

    significant enough to warrant a bump, but the bump should be made more

    significant based on the ramifications of the action. As in, +1 for the

    dragon, +0 if slaying it saved a village, +1 if slaying it saved a town, +2

    if slaying it saved a city, etc. It would fit better into the domain

    level`s system of random event resolution/failure and seque into

    translating adventure level results into the domain level in a way that

    could be used to make adventures out of the domain level itself a la LotHK.



    Gary

  7. #17
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by geeman@Dec 11 2003, 08:27 PM
    At 05:27 PM 12/11/2003 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:



    >You should not get blood score just for being a combat machine, you should

    >get blood score for doing things that create political power, like saving

    >a village in a heroic fashion. The village becomes instantly committed,

    >and other villages will be favorably disposed. The key is the village, not the

    >dragon.



    Even though I`d like to see more interaction between political and heroic

    accomplishments in BR`s RP system, I still think scope of heroic actions

    should play a part. Slaying a dragon (particularly a Cerilian one) is IMO

    significant enough to warrant a bump, but the bump should be made more

    significant based on the ramifications of the action. As in, +1 for the

    dragon, +0 if slaying it saved a village, +1 if slaying it saved a town, +2

    if slaying it saved a city, etc. It would fit better into the domain

    level`s system of random event resolution/failure and seque into

    translating adventure level results into the domain level in a way that

    could be used to make adventures out of the domain level itself a la LotHK.



    Gary

    I have to agree with Kenneth here blood score reflects the tie to the land and the people that a scion has. Killing a dragon (even a Cerilian one) is an act of individual accomplishment. Doing it to save a village, etc., is something that makes a hero greater in the eyes of the people and hence should have some reflection in his &#39;status&#39;, which is essentially measured by blood score.

    To expand on this - a character gains exp for killing (or defeating the obstacle) a dragon - this is a measure of individual accomplishment and doesn&#39;t tie into blood score. Simply gaining levels doesn&#39;t translate into an increase in blood score (except for the scion class levels in the revised BRCS Chap 2, but that is only 2 class levels any way so it doesn&#39;t matter in the long run for this comparison).

    Gary I do like the idea of scaling based on the &#39;level&#39; of the heroic deed.

    Without having read the article yet (I think we have the same RPGer mail handler Gary) it looks like they have made gaining blood abilities (and probably blood score) more character level based instead of action based - which IMO is very bad and destroys the epic feel of the setting. But again, I need to read the article for myself before I pass on my final opinion on it.

    Either way publishing anything about Birthright in Dragon is very good publicity for the setting, I only wish they would have mentioned the websites for the settings so that more stimulation could be applied. Hey that&#39;s where any substantial amount of &#39;new&#39; material is going to come from anyway, its going to come from the fans.
    Duane Eggert

  8. #18
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 11:11 AM 12/12/2003 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



    >I have to agree with Kenneth here blood score reflects the tie to the land

    >and the people that a scion has. Killing a dragon (even a Cerilian one)

    >is an act of individual accomplishment. Doing it to save a village, etc.,

    >is something that makes a hero greater in the eyes of the people and hence

    >should have some reflection in his `status`, which is essentially measured

    >by blood score.

    >

    > To expand on this - a character gains exp for killing (or defeating the

    > obstacle) a dragon - this is a measure of individual accomplishment and

    > doesn`t tie into blood score. Simply gaining levels doesn`t translate

    > into an increase in blood score (except for the scion class levels in the

    > revised BRCS Chap 2, but that is only 2 class levels any way so it

    > doesn`t matter in the long run for this comparison).

    >

    > Gary I do like the idea of scaling based on the `level` of the heroic deed.



    My memory is a little hazy on this, but I can describe a slightly anecdotal

    version of the story.... IIRC it was in an Internet chat or

    something.... Anyway, many moons ago one of the original BR designers

    (Baker, I think) was asked about the effect of a Cerilian dragon on a

    battlefield using BR`s warcards. What would be its hits, melee value,

    etc.? The designer half-jokingly/semi-seriously responded that a simple

    table might better reflect the influence of a Cerilian dragon in a battleround.



    d6 Result

    1-5 Dragon destroys 1-3 companies.

    6 Dragon gets bored and flies away.



    My point is that a village doesn`t even really count at the domain level,

    but the slaying of a dragon does. Villages don`t even raise to the domain

    level by themselves. It takes dozens to equal population level 1 for a

    province. Dragons in BR, however, are all by themselves a domain level

    effect. Killing a dragon is such an epic and legendary act that it is

    going to earn the slayer renown, influence, hero-worship, etc. It is, in

    and of itself, something that is tied to the land and the people, whether

    villagers are saved or not. Saving villagers in addition to slaying a

    dragon (I haven`t had a chance to read the article yet, but I`m assuming

    the idea is used to express great accomplishments, not just dragon killing

    alone) is all well and good but by itself the village is pretty small

    potatoes when it comes to the issue of bloodline.



    I think what they are getting at are some guidelines for reflecting the

    political influence of individual achievement--which is pretty close to

    what bloodline does. It bridges the adventure/character level with the

    domain/realm level, so giving a bloodline bump for individual acts that

    have an influence at the domain level--like killing a dragon--seems sensible.



    It is the collective "kismet" of the population that characters get their

    RP from, and a character who kills a dragon is going to get a lot of

    attention--with or without actually saving peasants--and that should

    warrant some kind of award at the bloodline level. There are a few

    guidelines for how to handle this kind of thing in the original BR

    materials. Other than the regency loss section of the RB for random

    events, but also the BoR`s section on increasing bloodline strength says

    that characters must accomplish heroic deeds as part of a process of

    proving to the DM that he worthy of an increase. Since it seems like this

    article has somewhat equated bloodline strength and bloodline score it

    might be that kind of thing they were trying to present with the

    concept--we`ll know more when we actually get to read the

    article.... Curse my postal carrier....



    > Without having read the article yet (I think we have the same RPGer mail

    > handler Gary) it looks like they have made gaining blood abilities (and

    > probably blood score) more character level based instead of action based

    > - which IMO is very bad and destroys the epic feel of the setting. But

    > again, I need to read the article for myself before I pass on my final

    > opinion on it.



    It sounds like there might be one or two good ideas in the article. We`ll

    see. But, hey, look at it this way, if its not terribly popular with the

    BR community then at least there is no worry about whether it is OGL or

    not, since it won`t need to go into any 3e update.... Unless there`s some

    sort of "official" thing going on that I`m blissfully unaware of.



    > Either way publishing anything about Birthright in Dragon is very good

    > publicity for the setting, I only wish they would have mentioned the

    > websites for the settings so that more stimulation could be applied. Hey

    > that`s where any substantial amount of `new` material is going to come

    > from anyway, its going to come from the fans.



    True. The more the merrier. Personally, I was surprised that the

    Dungeoncraft article that Dragon published a while back didn`t get more

    attention from the BR community even though it specifically mentioned

    BR. It was only tangentially related to BR, but still....



    The thing that hooked me on BR from the get go was the "Seeking

    Bloodsilver" adventure in Dungeon. Lots of little nuances to that

    adventure that I really enjoyed, and that I had always found lacking in

    D&D, or in any RPG, frankly. In fact, it brought me back to gaming on the

    whole after a hiatus of a few years.... If it were up to me I`d see more

    stuff like that in Dragon and Dungeon.



    Gary

  9. #19
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    OK, to answer everyone&#39;s questions, the Strengthen Bloodline feat is not listed as being a general feat, bonus feat, fighter bonusfeat, free feat or any other type of feat. It&#39;s just a feat. So I would imagine, to correct myself from earlier, it can only be taken at normal feat levels, not as a fighter&#39;s bonus feat. But that isn&#39;t clear, which is another reason I don&#39;t like the article - it feels like they cut a lot to fit it into a few pages. In fact, none of the feats are very clear as to where they fit in. The article does say they are not balanced with other feats of 3.5E, only with other bloodline feats. So now we are running two different feat systems??

    Sorry, geeman, they don&#39;t mention tighmaevril at all.

    And I agree with the arguments that being a combat machine isn&#39;t worthy of earning bloodline points. However, killing a cerilian dragon takes near god-like powers, and anyone able to do that, IMHO, ought to get a few points out of it&#33; That was my only point with that comment.

  10. #20
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 02:30 PM 12/12/2003 +0100, Benjamin wrote:



    > OK, to answer everyone`s questions, the Strengthen Bloodline feat is

    > not listed as being a general feat, bonus feat, fighter bonusfeat, free

    > feat or any other type of feat. It`s just a feat.



    I should probably note that in standard 3e/3.5 there is no noble PC class,

    and that the fighter was in the original 2e rules the class that most

    province rulers took on, making it the default "noble" for the

    setting. Making the feat one of the bonus fighter feats might make a

    little sense in that it would allow the fighter class to continue that

    role.... It`s not the best justification in the world, but it should

    probably be mentioned.



    > Sorry, geeman, they don`t mention tighmaevril at all.



    Drat.



    > And I agree with the arguments that being a combat machine isn`t worthy

    > of earning bloodline points. However, killing a cerilian dragon takes

    > near god-like powers, and anyone able to do that, IMHO, ought to get a

    > few points out of it&#33; That was my only point with that comment.



    Yeah, it sounds like its not a particularly well fleshed out idea as

    presented in the article, but I think it could turn into something useful.



    Gary

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