Why Hasn't The Gorgon Won Yet?

[ThatSeanGuy]

Isn't that what wards are for? Stopping the teleport stuff, I mean.

Anyway, I personally like the turning to stone answer someone posted here. As for me? Well, if I had my druthers, I'd just kill ol'stoneface off. Like was said earlier, he's so oversold as to be an impossible goal, something no party of heroes can hope to defeat, and also he's laying like a slug right between Anuire, Rjurik, and Brechtur. Instead of doing what a villain should, which is further the story and create adventure oppertunities, I usually see the Gorgon used like Stone from Deadlands, a sort of super ace trump card for the DM to use when up against the wall, or to smash a player over the head with.

To me, that particular region would be a heck of a lot more interesting if the Gorgon finally managed to claw his way into the Cerilian Pantheon, presumably as the god of ambition, bitterness, grudges, and the more "civilized" evils that Kriesha and Beleink don't cover. Suddenly, you've got at least a half dozen powerful awnshaegen and no less than four kingdoms without a dread overlord. I think telling a sort of Romance of the Three Awnshaegen with Earthcore, Tollar, the Hand of Azrai, and even the Warlock all fighting to sieze what parts of the Gorgon's empire they can, while the Markaz goblins, Mur-Kladian dwarves, and Kirgardian humans deal with suddenly being free, and the civil war that would inevitably follow there, is a heck of a lot more interesting than having yet another Sauron. Birthright's all about empires having fallen apart and brave would-be-kings bringing them back together. Why should it be different for the villains?

It'd also be a heck of a story reason for implimenting 4E changes, at the risk of digressing. "The Gorgon ascended to the heavens and, oh, it's open season on his old turf."

[AndrewTall]

It'd also be a heck of a story reason for implimenting 4E changes, at the risk of digressing. "The Gorgon ascended to the heavens and, oh, it's open season on his old turf."

One idea I had as a background campaign arc was the Gorgon replacing Belinik via ascension, his lieutenants had to prove themselves to him before he went in order to inherit his crown...

Plenty of plotting, potential invasions of Anuire, etc - all of which might be undermined by other factions in the Gorgon's court (particulkarly if they got out of hand) - and for cunning regents a chance possibly to loosen the Gorgon's grip on some of the vassal realms through choice diplomacy.

[ThatSeanGuy]

That would be pretty fun! If you could get the players involved not to degrade into hurling mugs and flipping tables, that is.

I was only thinking of that re: a hypothetical 4E Birthright because of the whole "Beacons of light." design, and because something as signifgant as that would be a great way to introduce new races like the dragonborn(Maybe an experiment of the Serpent's in creating a race of super soldiers that didn't go the way he wanted.) and tieflings(Humans who were affected by the Gorgon's ascension/living under any awnshaegen for too long.).

[Rowan]

Wards don't prevent teleport, but Shadow Block does. It still is a power with little place in BR, IMO.

I think insertion of any new races or classes into BR even after 4e should remain a house rule only thing. Personally, I don't see them fitting. Perhaps in the Shadow World, or rare creatures exiting the Shadow World (tieflings might work well there), but not populations of them even on the small scale of the halflings.

As for the Gorgon, his ascension to godhood would be one route. I think that's why the Hand of Azrai is so powerful. If the Gorgon holds every single temple holding in the realms he controls, all worshipping him, as well as all the magic here and in the Shadow World correlating to his lands, he could indeed ascend to godhoood. I believe he would indeed try to leave a successor in place, rather than just let them all fight it out after he left, because to do so would endanger his temples.

The other interesting aspect of godhood is that the spread of the Gorgon's temples could present some interesting problems, and he'd also be the most likely of gods to send avatars, seeing as how he'd have the most personal connection to the world he just left. Perhaps he has left Simulacra behind, hidden in various places, as "avatars?" Note that these would be 50% as powerful, and thus much more defeatable, though still more powerful than all but the mightiest of heroes individually.

I'm working on a way to make several layers of BR to start out some non-RPG-ers with a sort of tabletop strategy game, and the way it is shaping up it could make it much easier to adjudicate a campaign spanning several generations, with the detailed role-playing coming in at various key points along the way. This sort of game would lend itself better to the defeat of the Gorgon than most others, since several generations of dedicated effort sound about right for beating Gorgy.

[ThatSeanGuy]

"Spiritually tainted survivors of a fallen empire who're trying to rise above their dark heritage." and "Relitivly new race of organized, ambitious humanoids who want to carve out a home for themselves." don't fit in Birthright?

[Rowan]

Perhaps in yours, but not in my view of BR as a more traditional, generally low-magic, more real-world setting, where the only magical race are the mysterious and relatively few woodland fey, the elves, long a stock superstition amidst historical folklore.

[ThatSeanGuy]

Unlike demons, dragons and beast-men, which are brand new innovations.

But, speculating about 4E stuff is mildly off topic, and I apologize. In an attempt to get back on topic: I think the Gorgon having a clear successor would be mildly out of character-he's tried before, and learned that he does not share well-and ultimately replace the issue of "There's this invincible Doctor Doom guy who is sitting in the place where the Brechts, Rjurik, and Anurieans would naturally cross paths." This has always beena problem for me because I've always been very interested in how the five human cultures interact together, and they don't have many places on the map to do it.

Certainly, he could have a plan, but who says it would go his way? Suddenly going from world's toughest monster to the newest demigod doesn't have to be something he's fully realized the implications of.

[Rowan]

Those other creatures don't control great territories like the realm-level cultures. Tieflings might work very well in Aduria, since Aduria apparently had no elves or dwarves.

The Gorgon couldn't stand a successor while he ruled, but after apotheosis...? He'd probably just look for a successor for Gorgon's Crown and keep most of the vassal realms envassaled, possibly directly to himself as a demigod if this is possible.

Another interesting point. If the Gorgon truly is Prince Raesene and a little less a monster, then perhaps a little revision could be allowed to make his mini-empire a crossroads that he does indeed let people pass through--for heavy tolls. That could create some tensions. The Champion's Road could be a major highway running through the area, with the Gorgon's human and elven followers settling more along its length than the goblins, if only to not totally discourage travel along its length. The Gorgon could generate some more gold from it, and could indeed operate guilds.

I think the Gorgon's realms work as is if he is a brute that is rather less intelligent these days due to the influence of Azrai's blood over the ages. As long as you add in the Tribal Units variants rule, that is.

I think it's more interesting, though, to let Raesene be intelligent and civil enough to treat with, simply ruling a mixed empire that is extremely militant and ruthlessly efficient. Under that scenario, I'd give him full holdings of all types, maxed out with cunning efficiency, as well as ruling the tribal groups that populate his realm. That makes him a true terror (plus the endless hordes of skeletons standing silently in wait in the caverns and tunnels beneath Kal Saitharak). It also engages him in something other than war. To balance his personal power, I'd key it to several locations and items, so that outside of his realm he is much weakened, but within the reach of his Sources and Temples, he rules as a god.

[Magian]

Why hasn't Raesene taken the Iron Throne? That's simple, he's unlucky. His fate has taken him in a direction that has become his worst nightmare. He is a first son passed over for a younger brother. So, he ventures out on adventure to prove his worth and still he is not given what he has earned for the mere reason of his brother being a birth in marriage.

Raesene joins the rising tide in a great campaign, only to be defeated by the united forces against him and his master. With new blossoming power he lives to fight another day. This only proves he's a survivor. He retreats and forges a domain of his own in the aftermath of the great war. Perhaps for the first time becoming a king in his own right.

Born to Anuire and its culture and histories he is an Anuirean at heart. His motivations are derived from Anuirean values whether they are tainted by a jaded outlook or not, he is still a product of the forces around him. He is but a man. Yet, men learn and Raesene also learns and that is what has given him his successes. Even if they are failures in his own eyes.

Early on with his new found powers he felt invincible and knew he could defeat anyone without fear of death, yet he found defeat time and time again campaign after campaign. For all his skills, powers, and abilities he still couldn't take the throne. These failures proved to be valuable lessons and the elves themselves are to blame mostly for this. Sure it can be said they are the thorns at his sides, but at the same time they are the teachers of how to live a long life and who better to teach Raesene this than the elves. For all his powers in the face of the elves he has one shortcoming and that is experience. Even to this day he is considered but a cub compared to them. So, the slower he becomes the more deadly and precise are his efforts.

Although he is the strongest most worthy lord in all of Cerilia he still is not the emperor that he desires to be. Instead he has become it's biggest threat. Perhaps the touch of the shadow has clouded his mind to this, or perhaps his ambition drives him beyond it and is justification for him to continue.

How long does he have? Truly has anyone with the long life blood ability ever died of old age? Would it not change the psyche of anyone to stay seemingly the same age while those you know die off and their children and their children's children? Do they even know how long they will live? It is a process and they take it as it comes and deal with it how they can. Like any, the passage of time accelerates as they go on. Patience is a virtue perhaps, but it is also a coping mechanism for longevity.

Bad luck has ruled over Raesene's life, for truly can we judge him to be any less than his father who forged an empire with a sword? Is Raesene any different? Sure he is, or rather his luck is. However, in the face of this he has endured and forged his own luck and has gained great power. Shouldn't he too be revered as a hero? Has he any more blood on his hands than the other noble families of Anuire?

There are many strategies that can be considered and many spells, counterspells, and tricks that could be used to take out a regent or lord. Yet it all boils down to mathematics and the luck of the roll. Sure consider combat first when taking over a realm. The elves have the experience and at least equal abilities to Raesene, therefore they are too high a risk for his cannon fodder armies. Still its possible but too costly as history has shown.

Now let us consider the Anuirean puppies. It is a mathematical game of bloodline strength to invest a realm and to consider Raesene having to take on all of the realms united together, as of this day it is impossible. So, his game of divide and conquer in the face of his perceived immortality seems to be a sound path of conquest. He gains the most with the least loss. It is a game that may take a long time and that is why I suggest that he hasn't "Won" yet.

[Mirviriam]

Then the Gorgon is clearly too powerful. He only needs to be strong enough to prevent the players or any determined group of NPC from killing him. There is no need to make a Cerilian Elminster.

And as you say...teleport is about the silliest spell there is...

I had a player who I worked with for awhile - he would triple-threat-critical every third or fourth monster. We took the rule out because of that fact. The gorgon does not come south because I'd ring my boy out of retirement & make the rule active again.

Even with the rule off for 3xCriticals, there are groups out there that are just really great & can take a 2nd Edition group around 16th level. Simply because they are going to expect the cunning gorgon & if he does teleport they will know where - it might even turn out that the whole field of battle was chosen as a trap for the gorgon...he does have to pass through THEIR home.

On a serious note: While they wanted a bad ass in 2nd Edition - ALL rules converting him to 3rd Edition do not work as no one planned for Birthright conversions - it's an exercise in futility. Obviously we need to take a hard look at the way the conversions are being done.

It's funny what someone else said about the modifiers & D20 - I've heard similar things from the power gamer's corner. We were comparing how combat is about debuffing their enemies rather than hugely buffing yourself as the debuff makes every multiple attack from warriors throwing down 5+ attacks a round. The break down was using debuffing in a way that they did not allow saving throws by using aoe styles before wading into him.

That or you could easily convert the rolling from D20 to percentage (D100) then the +58 modifier is only adding a 50% chance instead of sure hits? Maybe we make the system D200 for the gorgon fight? I'm not a stats guy by any means - but I feel the need to point out if the system is broken, fix it.

Consider too, if the players are going to unite realms beyond on the borders of what other nations have achieved they will be higher level than ALL of the other leaders or so smart level does not matter.