Ships Of Cerilia

[teloft]

Caravel

\Car"a*vel\ (k[a^]r"[.a]*v[e^]l), n. [F. caravelle (cf. It. caravella, Sp. carabela), fr. Sp. caraba a kind of vessel, fr. L. carabus a kind of light boat, fr. Gr. ka`rabos a kind of light ship, NGr. kara`bi ship, vessel.] [written also carvel and caravelle.] (Naut.) A name given to several kinds of vessels. 
(a) The caravel of the 16th century was a small vessel with broad bows, high, narrow poop, four masts, and lateen sails. Columbus commanded three caravels on his great voyage. 
(B) A Portuguese vessel of 100 or 150 tons burden. 
(c) A small fishing boat used on the French coast. 
(d) A Turkish man-of-war.

[lord_arioch]

heh heh heh, like I said earlier, even the historians don't agree.

We must remember ships come in all shapes and sizes, one man's galleon is another man's caravel.

Even our modern navies use ships class in a general sense.

If we can agree on what a Birthright caravel, galleon, etc look like (In a general sense) then we are in good shape.

[Barrataria]

I'm glad I looked in here as I'm fooling with ship types for my basic/expert Birthright campaign.

I think you all are reaching the best conclusion: naval history is tough to master and certainly not worth it for purposes of "historical accuracy". Lots of the things specifically affecting ship development are different: particularly arms (assuming you don't use gunpowder) and provisions are less important (since you could carry a cleric for water, at least).

You might consider the differences between the Cerilia map and the 1400-era map on which the ships you are discussing were sailing. They had to cross enormous oceans, and (although I'm not a BR expert) that is not an issue on the Cerilia map. Sailing from Ariya to Brechlen is essentially a coastal proposition. Sailing out of sight of land is pointless, because (except around Khourane or the mouth of the Krakennauricht) sailing in the open ocean won't save much time/distance. Sails do allow carrying larger cargoes, however, because the crews are generally smaller than galleys. Maybe that argues for lots of oar/sailed craft, like a galeass.

I can tell that you all have decided (and I don't have Seas of Cerilia so don't know if that affects the decisions) on a more Renaissance feel for the seas, with more sail and less oar. I like sailing ships better for D&D purposes, but in some ways this is turning history on its ear. The northern europeans were late to the game in terms of sailing technology; the arabs had lateen sails long before and sailed from southeast asia to Africa. It was grafting the lateen sail onto the square-sail ships like the cog that begat the caravel/nao which were the ships that allowed the Portuguese to sail around Africa and beyond, and the Mayflower et. al. to come along.

Anyway, I wouldn't be slavish to Earth history, but focus on designing useful and interesting ships for GAME PURPOSES.

One stat that I would include that is far too often ignored: draft. That is the minimum amount of water needed to float a ship, and is critical for the success of certain types of ship. Sir Francis Drake tended to pirate with shallow-draft ships so he could hide in the shallows where privateers couldn't follow. It will tell you how far upriver your ships can travel, and perhaps some places wil be protected by reefs or sandbars that preclude galleons from entering.

BB

[ConjurerDragon]

Barrataria schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...ST&f=36&t=2114



> Barrataria wrote:

> I`m glad I looked in here as I`m fooling with ship types for my basic/expert Birthright

>campaign. I think you all are reaching the best conclusion: naval history is tough to master

> and certainly not worth it for purposes of "historical accuracy". Lots of the things

> specifically affecting ship development are different: particularly arms (assuming you don`t

>use gunpowder) and provisions are less important (since you could carry a cleric for water, at

> least). You might consider the differences between the Cerilia map and the 1400-era map on which

> the ships you are discussing were sailing. They had to cross

enormous oceans, and (although

> I`m not a BR expert) that is not an issue on the Cerilia map.

Sailing from Ariya to Brechlen

> is essentially a coastal proposition. Sailing out of sight of land

is pointless, because

>except around Khourane or the mouth of the Krakennauricht) sailing in

the open ocean won`t save

> much time/distance.



Depending on your destination. The Khinasi will have to sail in the open

ocean if they wish to travel the the original islands of the Basarji

(was that Djapar?). However I agree with your view that the naval ways

of Cerilia (this one continent) do not resemble the naval explorations

from Europe towards America - rather those earlier from Europe along the

coast of Africa. From cape to cape sometimes still in the fear to reach

the "edge of the world" and not be able to return. Where Kap Verde was

for some time the border of the known world before the Portuguese

sailors went further and further.



If a campaign does not focus on Cerilia alone but runs on the whole

world of Aebrynnis with all of Djapar, Aduria, Thaele and whatever else

out there then the comparison with the exploration of America is valid

again.



> Sails do allow carrying larger cargoes, however, because the crews are

>generally smaller than galleys. Maybe that argues for lots of

oar/sailed craft, like a galeass.

> I can tell that you all have decided (and I don`t have Seas of

Cerilia) on a more Renaissance

> feel for the seas, with more sail and less oar. I like sailing ships

better for D&D

>purposes, but in some ways this is turning history on its ear. The

northern europeans were late

>to the game in terms of sailing technology; the arabs had lateen sails

long before and sailed

>from southeast asia to Africa.



Vikings in Iceland, Greenland and Vinland did not only row... ;-)



> It was grafting the lateen sail onto the square-sail ships like

>the cog that begat the caravel/nao which were the ships that allowed

the Portuguese to sail

>around Africa and beyond, and the Mayflower et. al. to come along.

>Anyway, I wouldn`t be slavish to Earth history, but focus on designing useful and interesting

>ships for GAME PURPOSES.

> BB

[lord_arioch]

The Draft of ships.

The question raised by Barrataria about the draft of ships I have seen answered in PBEM thus;
Ships are given a class size (Eg. Coaster is light, Caravel is medium and Galleon in heavy.)
These class sizes can be used as a measure of draft. In some PBEM games maps have their rivers colored in different shades to show how far a ship can travel up river (Eg. On the Southern Anuire Coast, the Spider river may allow heavy ships to sail up river as far as Caercas. A medium ship can sail up to Caerwil and a light can sail up to the Spiderfell).

[lord_arioch]

TEST



Units Cost Sail MC Seaw Cargo Bunks Hits Defence
Caravel 6 3 B +6 3 1 2 14
Coaster 2 4 A +5 1 0 1 10
Cog 5 2 C +7 3 1 2 14
Dhoura 4 3 B +6 2 1 2 14
Dhow 2 4 A +4 1 0 1 10
Drakkar 8 1 D(2) +3 1 1 2 14
Galleon 15 3 E +5 6 3 4 16
Galley 8 2 B(2) +2 1 1 2 12
Keelboat 1 2 C(1) 0 1 0 1 8
Knarr 6 2 C(1) +6 2 1 2 14
Longship 3 2 C(2) +4 1 1 1 12
Roundship 12 3 E +8 5 2 3 16
Zebec 17 3 B +5 2 2 3 14

DAMN, :angry: I can't seem to get my chart listed correctly.

ANYWAYS, If I was to do a revision of the Naval Combat Rules who should I send that to on the BR team to review and post for questions and further revision?
thanks. B)

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by lord_arioch@Jan 8 2004, 12:15 AM
ANYWAYS, If I was to do a revision of the Naval Combat Rules who should I send that to on the BR team to review and post for questions and further revision?
thanks. B)

Daniel McSorley has taken on the responsibility to handle that Chapter.

Try sending him an IM and see if you can hook up.

[Michael Lloric]

All that mass in an Anuirean galleon would probably be redistributed for troop fighting capacity (deck space, castles, battlements on every inch of the fighting deck, perhaps arrow loops instead of gun ports along the sides!). I've been struggling to figure out how 3 companies of troops could all fight at once ona galleon. Stll struggling, in fact, so if anyone's got any ideas, I'm all ears. The arrow slits along the sides is the best answer I've come up with so far.

Besides that, I'd say ballistae and catapults would have to round out a galleon's armament. Rotating mounts would be a necessity. In my campaign, I've had galleons euipped with fore and aft heavy catapults, and several mid-ship ballista (perhaps 2 on each side).

I think that the D&D 3.5 sourcebook "Heroes of Battle" gives some indication of different forms of siege artillery that might be used on board ships, each has crew requirements to operate. as well as to move ammunition from other parts of the ship, replace casualties, etc.

You also have the possibility of boarding actions, requiring melee troops to attack and sieze an enemy ship. Add to that entire units of crossbowmen, archers, or slingers, who would fire direct shots (crossbowmen) from behind a shieldwall (spearmen) that prevents boarders, or archers who can fire a volley even from behind a barrier onto the enemy vessel without direct line of sight, or by targeting crew in the rigging.

The rules aren't going to always reflect out own Earth's combat tactics and ship history precisely, but I think it's fantastic the discussion is so in-depth. It shows a love for the game that is awesome to see!

[kgauck]

Stormwrack was the 3.5 naval supliment my brother so thoughtfully gave for Christmas last year. I think the greatship, on p.100 is an excellent match for the Anuirean galleon.

Greatship: Colossal vehicle; Seaworthiness +6; Ship-handling -4; Speed wind x25 ft (poor); Overall AC -3; Hull sections 240 (sink 60 sections); Section hp 80 (hardness 5); Section AC 3; Rigging Sections AC 4; Rigging hp 80 (hardness 0); AC 1; Ram 6d6; Mounts 12 light 4 heavy; Space 150 ft. by 40 ft.; Height 20ft (draft 20 ft); Complement 500; Watch 20; Cargo 500 tons (Speed wind x 15 ft if 250 tons or more); Cost 60,000 gp.

[Lee]

Kgauck wrote:

Stormwrack was the 3.5 naval supliment my brother so thoughtfully gave for
Christmas last year. I think the greatship, on p.100 is an excellent match for
the Anuirean galleon.

Greatship: Colossal vehicle; Seaworthiness +6; Ship-handling -4; Speed wind
x25 ft (poor); Overall AC -3; Hull sections 240 (sink 60 sections); Section
hp 80 (hardness 5); Section AC 3; Rigging Sections AC 4; Rigging hp 80
(hardness 0); AC 1; Ram 6d6; Mounts 12 light 4 heavy; Space 150 ft. by 40 ft.;
Height 20ft (draft 20 ft); Complement 500; Watch 20; Cargo 500 tons (Speed wind x
15 ft if 250 tons or more); Cost 60,000 gp.



I thought it worked better as the Brecht towership?

I started (but apparently didn`t finish?) a comparison chart for Stormwrack and BR names

BR Caravel = SW Caravel/sailing ship
Longship = Longship
Zebec = Galley or Dromond?

Dhow = Dhow
Coaster = Cog or Pinnace?

Hmm, I may have to come back to this, I`ll be running a Brecht/pirate game in a year or so.

Lee.