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  1. #11
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    I also feel that 'a' ship in BR does not refer to one vessel, but instead to approximately 3 -- much as a war card of troops refers to about 200 combattants. After all, I seriously doubt that a single Caravel can play host to some 200 marines, and all of their associated retainers, supply train, etc.

    Any thoughts on this?
    "It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion -- and usually easier."

    - R. A. Heinlien, from The Collected works of Lazarus Long

  2. #12
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "Athos69" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 5:02 PM





    > I also feel that `a` ship in BR does not refer to one vessel, but

    > instead to approximately 3 -- much as a war card of troops refers

    > to about 200 combattants. After all, I seriously doubt that a single

    > Caravel can play host to some 200 marines, and all of their associated

    > retainers, supply train, etc.

    >

    > Any thoughts on this?



    Most of a ship`s effectiveness as a combat machine is not a function of the

    combatants on board, but of the machine itself. The same thing is true of

    the Artillery warcard. It may well represent 50 men and 5 siege engines.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  3. #13
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 12:02 AM 12/1/2003 +0100, Athos69 wrote:



    > I also feel that `a` ship in BR does not refer to one vessel, but

    > instead to approximately 3 -- much as a war card of troops refers to

    > about 200 combattants. After all, I seriously doubt that a single

    > Caravel can play host to some 200 marines, and all of their associated

    > retainers, supply train, etc.

    >

    > Any thoughts on this?



    I`ve always thought it was sensible that what the "units" of seacraft

    represented in BR was really "squadrons" or other groupings of craft rather

    than single ship operating alone. Some ships might certainly be large

    enough to represent a unit all alone, but others should be considered

    groups smaller craft acting in concert.



    I`ve fiddled around a bit with some craft design rules for D20 using

    various building materials, tech levels, etc. and found that kind of thing

    interesting, but I`m the kind of guy who likes using RPG rules to "design"

    spaceships, weapons, etc. so I don`t think it`s most people`s cup of

    tea. One could, however, use such a system of rules and then present the

    "standard" ship types, units, etc. and get largely the same end result as

    the units at the BR domain level, but have a system available for those who

    want to take things a step further. In the long run, that`s the kind of

    thing I prefer.



    Gary

  4. #14
    Senior Member teloft's Avatar
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    Originally posted by lord_arioch@Nov 28 2003, 06:47 AM
    It seems the more I look into the history of sailing ships the more I realize I know very little of the history of the sailing ships &#33;
    Well said by OSPREY regarding the historical accuracy of ships. There is a lot of contradictory info out there.

    I think I will content myself with a revision of the explanations given of the Cerilian ships and a touch up on their MC. To me a galleon with a MC of B is hard to believe. As for armaments, I think the ballista (very large crossbow) would be the only weapon allowed on ships with lots of sail.

    Anyways, I&#39;ll see what I come up with .
    As I remember my sagas. The sails were trimmed, and even the masters holding the sails were taking down, increasing the stability of the ship. I even remeber storys of ships begin fasten to gether so if one of them wouls be filled with water, thay would not sink, and therefore the fleat could not be sunken exept as a howl. and therefore you have a land battle on the ships. with the exeption of there is no charging.

    However Berserkers (barberians in D20 terms) are not wery usefull in sea battles for thay tend to charge rigth off the ship and fall into the water.

  5. #15
    Senior Member teloft's Avatar
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    Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Nov 27 2003, 10:26 PM
    • As for the catapult, there is something that troubles me here... I don&#39;t know how many of you are aware of this, but the word catapult is a paraphrase of the greek word katapeltis (kataPEltis, e as in red, and i as in ship). The original meaning is what is now known as a ballista, also a paraphrasr of the word vallistra, which originally meant what is known as a catapult&#33; I don&#39;t know if there is a confusion here...
    Now for the orgin of the Scandinavian ship.

    (partly off topic)

    There are some profesors here thet state about the orgin of the people of iceland. involving she scandinavian cargo ship used for travel betvine scandinavia and americe.

    there was a tribe of people in mid germany. and when the next tribe started to expand thay took there belongings and moved on were there was no war. it was a tribe thet had settled there from macidonia or greek and joind in with the local population.

    Now thay made there move to scandinavia, with the main body setteling in West norway. Thets how it is said thet the ship building knowledge traveld to scandinavia.

    Now when the 3 kingdomes in scandinavia formed, thees peasfull people thet dint like to have some rulers over there heads moved on like thay were used to. and settled as masters in Iceland, and founded dublin. storys even state thet thay saild back to the mediterian and settled where is to day south italy, and sicil island.

    This is supose to hapen betvine 700 - 1000.

    My suport to this teory is

    1. every sound represented in modern greek is also present in icelandic.
    2. very strong Democratic traditions witch are similar to the democrasy of agent greek.
    3. Refferances in the sagas.

  6. #16
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    None of the ships in BRCS should have ramming ability. The hull construction of caravels, galleons, longships, roundships, etc, was such that they would break into pieces if they actually tried to ram anything. The only ships able to ram were long and sleek, such as Mediterranean galleys and dromonds. The only BR ship that comes close is the Serpent galley. I know ramming is cool, but it simply isn&#39;t realistic for galleons and caravels.

    So, if ramming is desired, then I suggest adding a new ship type. Call it a galley, perhaps. The Anuireans and Khinasi would be the likely cultures to build it.

  7. #17
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    If it at all helps...

    The ships that Christopher Columbus came to the western continents in were caravels. I don&#39;t know how many crew he had on each, but they had enough water and food for the few month journey from the Canary Islands to Bahamas.

    I believe the settlers came to Virginia and Massachussetts in caravels, also. Again, I don&#39;t know how many people were on each, but they carried all the food they needed for the trip, plus equipment to set up a new life.

    Now, if any of you have been to Plymouth, Massachussetts and take a tour of the "pilgrim" ship there, you will see it is TINY. Maybe 40m long, about 10m at the widest, a deck below that is only ~1.5m tall, and a cargo hold below that. I can&#39;t imagine stacking 200 people into that for an extended period of time.

  8. #18
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    Benjamin schrieb:

    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

    > You can view the entire thread at:

    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...ST&f=36&t=2114

    >

    > Benjamin wrote:

    > If it at all helps...

    >

    > The ships that Christopher Columbus came to the western continents in were caravels.

    Mmmh, Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria?

    At least *something* useful learned in schools history lessons ;-)



    >I don`t know how many crew he had on each, but they had enough water and food for the few month

    > journey from the Canary Islands to Bahamas.



    They had enough? Strange, I remember that they ran out of digestible

    food and nearly faced mutiny

    therefore - but that might just be my memory from the movie "1492"...

    But was that because they could not store/preserve more food or because

    Cristobal Colon did

    not expect that the journey to be so long due to wrong calculations - or

    because he could not tell anyone how long the journy was he calculated

    correct, but noone would have let him have 3 ships if they had known

    just HOW far that destination was away? ;-)



    > I believe the settlers came to Virginia and Massachussetts in caravels, also.



    Someone else wrote a while ago that "Caravel" was used in a very free

    way for ships that not all were identical. I don´t know, but I would

    assume that Columbus´s Spanish Caravels were not the same ships as the

    later english Mayflower, or were they?

    bye

    Michael

  9. #19
    Member lord_arioch's Avatar
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    I believe that the Nina and the Pinta were caravels and the Santa Maria was a carrack.
    The Mayflower was a galleon.
    To each, his own.

  10. #20
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    On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, lord_arioch wrote:

    > I believe that the Nina and the Pinta were caravels and the Santa

    > Maria was a carrack.



    Those are handy labels, but they`re all post-applied, ships were built by

    hand and every one was unique, really.



    There`s a replica of the Santa Maria here in columbus, they built it for

    the 500th anniversery in `92, and I`ve been on it. It`s miniscule.



    http://www.santamaria.com/index.php



    That site calls the Santa Maria a "nao", and claims it`s 98 feet long, but

    I really think that must include like rigging and spars and the forecastle

    and stuff, because it doesn`t seem that big. It`s 72 feet at the

    waterline, which is more like it. Really small.



    --

    Daniel McSorley

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