BRCS Religion Chapter - Torazan`s alignment

[Osprey]

Well, the smallest, weakest giant around, the ogre, has +10, and they have 4 HD. As orogs have 3 HD, +8 Str seems about right to me. Or take orcs. They have have 1 HD and +4 Str. Orogs have 3 HD. That's 2 HD more. Again, +6 Str doesn't seem so bad to me. After all, bugbears have 4 points higher bonus to Str and 2 HD more than hobgoblins. So, by the same token, as orogs have 2 HD more than orcs, why wouldn't they be allowed 4 points higher bonus to Str than orcs as well?

Using your line of reasoning, why should orogs have 4 higher Str than bugbears, yet are roughly the same size and bulk? At +6 they're still stronger than the great goblins...

Besides, I think the description of orogs makes them a bit shorter than bugbears, but probably thicker and denser.

I see base HD as representing size, bulk, and hardiness...this has some correlation to strength, but mostly to the amount of damage it takes to drop one. And Constitution more directly measures toughness, stamina, and general hardiness - something I imagine is a trait of orogs thanks to their selective "harrowing of the weak" and warlike, "be tough or die" culture. It simply wouldn't be enough to be strong but die quickly.

Besides, the imbalance between Strength and Constitution makes for lopsided encounters. Orogs at +8 Str hit ridiculously hard (avg. +4 damage), yet with no Con mod. and 3d8 hp (14 hp average) they go down in two blows from a decent fighter, maybe even one good shot!

I still think it's a better all-around descriptor to go +6 Str and +2 Con...

And if you really wanted a campaign that stressed the "orogs are mean and tough as hell" culture, you could even round those out to +4 Str, +4 Con, balancing aggression with survival of the fittest. That would give them an average hp of 20, essentially being able to take 3 decent blows before going down in a fight. And higher level leaders and elites would be even more frightening, of course...

[Fearless_Leader]

Originally posted by The Green Knight@Nov 16 2003, 12:39 AM
This I think is an exceedingly bad idea. Why is such a change necessary?
There was already a nice spread of evil alignments.

Goblins are social creatures that seem to be able to build strong socialstructures wherever they gather. Orogs, on the other hand, when they are not fighting external enemies they are fighting each other, making orogsocieties unstable at best.

While goblins have shown that they are able to establish some civilization (Thurazor is a prime example, as is the city of Kal Murthan in Kal Kalathor), I think they still do display many chaotic tendencies. They tend not to respect their own leaders and are always on the verge of civil war. The only goblin society not on the verge of fragmentation is Markazor, where unity is imposed from above.
Orogs on the other hand have highly regimented, disciplined, and brutal societies. However, they do have a tendency to follow whoever is strongest. The current Scarlet Baron of the Blood Skull Barony being a good example (having come to power after killing the previous Baron during his invasion of Rjurik). I would say though that after a new leader is in power, Orog society follows that leader without the complications of civil wars.

[Osprey]

While goblins have shown that they are able to establish some civilization (Thurazor is a prime example, as is the city of Kal Murthan in Kal Kalathor), I think they still do display many chaotic tendencies. They tend not to respect their own leaders and are always on the verge of civil war. The only goblin society not on the verge of fragmentation is Markazor, where unity is imposed from above.

Agreed. And of the 2 goblin nations described, both are prone to intense paranoia from plots and backstabbing, assassination attempts, coups, etc. The rulers who last are those who take paranoid measures against these constant threats.

Doesn't that sound more like a neutral evil racial tendency? "Trust no one except yourself, work together because somebody stronger than you makes you, if you see a chance to get ahead by any means, take it!" These are quintessential "by whatever means necessary" neutral evil platforms.

Orogs on the other hand have highly regimented, disciplined, and brutal societies. However, they do have a tendency to follow whoever is strongest. The current Scarlet Baron of the Blood Skull Barony being a good example (having come to power after killing the previous Baron during his invasion of Rjurik). I would say though that after a new leader is in power, Orog society follows that leader without the complications of civil wars.

I think following the strongest leader is a natural function of orog society - it is pyramidal, with the stronger ruling the weaker, who in turn dominate the weaker ones beneath them, and so on. Not so different from a feudal system, is it? Yet we call the Anuireans a lawful society, but the mean, brutish orogs can't make this claim?

I think the strong ruling the weak works fine for a Lawful Evil society. It's how they rule that would define whether or not they're lawful. Does the ruler of an orog band, nation, tribe, etc. tend to use strict rules, discipline, and order to maintain power? This would be lawful rule, IMO. If he uses pure personal strength, charisma, and brute force, this would be chaotic [evil] rule. A combination of the two might be neutral evil, although BR implies that most NE rulers seem to be scheming and backstabbing types. I would add that a NE ruler uses and obeys the rules when it suits him, and changes them when that works better. But changing rules does tend to lead to a breakdown in discipline and order - change and uncerainty breeds chaos, which destabilizes any leader's rulership and power.

After reflection and reading others' comments, I starting to think orogs could fall into LE or NE alignments equally well, as could goblins.

So my suggestion is this: instead of saying either race is usually LE or NE, why not use a less restrictive descriptor, such as Often.

To say orogs are "often Neutral Evil" means a plurality, 40-50%, are of that alignment, but variations are common.

Same goes for saying goblins are "often Lawful Evil."

This treats the races as less generic and a bit more varied within their societies, which it seems is reflected by their descriptions.

-Osprey

[Aurel]

Why not used the orogs as exactly shown in the Races of Fearun Book?