BRCS Religion Chapter - Torazan`s alignment

[Green Knight]

Hi



The BRCS has Torazan, the god of Orogs listed as lawful evil. Any

particular reason since orogs as a race are neutral evil?



Cheers

Bjørn

[Osprey]

I've always thought Orogs should be Lawful Evil anyways. They are consistently described as well-organized, strategically capable (BRCS even gives them a +2 Warcraft bonus&#33, and described as disciplined fighters on the battelfield. Sounds pretty darn lawful to me. Hell, they're the only humanoids who field pike companies! Tell me that doesn't take strict discipline and organization!

It might be a typo for all of that, but personally I'd rather see Orogs have Lawful Evil as their "usual" alignment.

[the Falcon]

I agree that orogs should lawful evil. In my campaign, orogs are LE, goblins NE, and gnolls CE. A nice spread of of evil alignments among the three evil major races that way.

As I'm on the topic of orogs anyways, here's my v3.5 take on orogs that I made a while. Really don't remember if I've posted this before, but hey, better safe than sorry. :P


OROG
Medium Humanoid (Orog)
Hit Dice: 3d8 (13 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: +6 (+3 natural, +3 studded leather), touch +0, flat-footed +6
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+6
Attack: Falchion +7 melee (2d4+6/18–20) or javelin +2 ranged (1d6+4)
Full Attack: Falchion +7 melee (2d4+6/18–20) or javelin +2 ranged (1d6+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Darkvision 120 ft., light sensitivity
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +1
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 9
Skills: Listen +6, Spot +6
Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (falchion)
Environment: Underground
Organization: Gang (2–5), squad (6–11 plus 2 2nd-level sergeants and 1 leader of 2nd–5th level plus 1–2 monitor lizards), or band (20–80 plus 50% noncombatants plus 1 2nd-level sergeant per 10 adults, 5 4th-level lieutenants, and 3 6th-level captains plus 3–13 monitor lizards)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually lawful evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +1

COMBAT
Light Sensitivity (Ex): Orogs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.

OROGS AS CHARACTERS
— +8 Strength, –2 Charisma.
—Medium size.
—A orog's base land speed is 30 feet.
—Darkvision out to 120 feet.
—Racial Hit Dice: An orog begins with three levels of humanoid, which provide 3d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +3, and Will +1.
—Racial Skills: A orog's humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 6 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Listen and Spot.
—Racial Feats: A orog's humanoid levels give it two feats.
— +3 natural armor bonus.
—Automatic Languages: Orog, local human tongue. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Karamhul.
—Favored Class: Fighter.


What do you think?

[ConjurerDragon]

the Falcon schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...=ST&f=2&t=2086

>

> the Falcon wrote:

> > Light Sensitivity (Ex): Orogs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of

> a daylight spell.



Has Light Sensivity been changed in 3.5? Or is this not a fixed term, as

for example the Duergar in 3.0 had "Light Sensivity" and had a -2

circumstance penalty.



Is "dazzled" the same as the "Daze" spell? If so would humanoids of 5+

HD still not be affected? Or are dazzled and dazed different?





> — +8 Strength, –2 Charisma.

Isn´t +8 too high for only -2 on charisma?



> —Medium size.

> —A bugbear’s base land speed is 30 feet.



Bugbear? But Bugbears are a goblin subrace and not orogs?



> —Darkvision out to 120 feet.

Is that 3.5 specific or do they really see twice as far as dwarves? Even

Deep Dwarfs see only 90 feet in the 3.0 MM and only Duergar would match

120 feet.





> —Racial Hit Dice: An orog begins with three levels of humanoid, which provide 3d8 Hit Dice,

a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1,

Ref +3, and Will +1.

> —Racial Skills: A orog`s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 6 × (2 + Int modifier).

Its class skills are Listen and Spot.

> —Racial Feats: A orog`s humanoid levels give it two feats.

> — +3 natural armor bonus.

> —Automatic Languages: Orog, local human tongue. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Karamhul.

> —Favored Class: Fighter.

> What do you think?



Local human tongue as automatic language for every Orog? I can´t see

EVERY Blood Skull Orog speaking Rjurik or EVERY Black Spear Tribe Orog

speaking Khinasi or EVERY Iron Mountain? Orog speaking Vos language.



Why not a rule like in the 3.0 Monsters Manual under Goblins: "Goblins

speak Goblin; those with Intelligence scores of 12 or above also speak

common." Replace Goblin with Orog and common with local human language

or Karamhul and it´s fine.

bye

Michael

[Green Knight]

This I think is an exceedingly bad idea. Why is such a change necessary?

There was already a nice spread of evil alignments.



Goblins are social creatures that seem to be able to build strong social

structures wherever they gather. Orogs, on the other hand, when they are

not fighting external enemies they are fighting each other, making orog

societies unstable at best.



-----Original Message-----

From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion

[mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of the Falcon

Sent: 15. november 2003 23:01

To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM

Subject: Re: BRCS Religion Chapter - Torazan`s alignment [2#2086]



This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

You can view the entire thread at:

http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...=ST&f=2&t=2086



the Falcon wrote:

I agree that orogs should lawful evil. In my campaign, orogs are LE,

goblins NE, and gnolls CE. A nice spread of of evil alignments among the

three evil major races that way. :)



As I`m on the topic of orogs anyways, here`s my v3.5 take on orogs that

I made a while. Really don`t remember if I`ve posted this before, but

hey, better safe than sorry. :P











Light Sensitivity (Ex): Orogs are dazzled in bright sunlight or

within the radius of a daylight spell.





— +8 Strength, –2 Charisma.

—Medium size.

—A bugbear’s base land speed is 30 feet.

—Darkvision out to 120 feet.

—Racial Hit Dice: An orog begins with three levels of humanoid, which

provide 3d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw

bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +3, and Will +1.

—Racial Skills: A orog`s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to

6 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Listen and Spot.

—Racial Feats: A orog`s humanoid levels give it two feats.

— +3 natural armor bonus.

—Automatic Languages: Orog, local human tongue. Bonus Languages:

Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Karamhul.

—Favored Class: Fighter.





What do you think?



************************************************** **********************

****



Birthright-l Archives:

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[the Falcon]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ConjurerDragon)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Has Light Sensivity been changed in 3.5? Or is this not a fixed term, as for example the Duergar in 3.0 had "Light Sensivity" and had a -2 circumstance penalty.
Is "dazzled" the same as the "Daze" spell? If so would humanoids of 5+ HD still not be affected? Or are dazzled and dazed different?
[/b]

And I answer:

Originally posted by d20 v.3.5 SRD+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (d20 v.3.5 SRD)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Dazzled: The creature is unable to see well because of overstimulation of the eyes. A dazzled creature takes a –1 penalty on attack rolls, Search checks, and Spot checks.
[/b]

Originally posted by -ConjurerDragon
Isn´t +8 too high for only -2 on charisma?

Hey, they aren&#39;t Level Adjustment +1 for nothing.

Originally posted by -ConjurerDragon
Bugbear? But Bugbears are a goblin subrace and not orogs?

Hah&#33; That&#39;s what I get for copy-pasting from another creature&#39;s description. :lol:

Is that 3.5 specific or do they really see twice as far as dwarves? Even Deep Dwarfs see only 90 feet in the 3.0 MM and only Duergar would match 120 feet.

No, it&#39;s Falcon-specific. For purposes of comparison, here&#39;s my write-up of the 3.5 Cerilian dwarf:

DWARVES
[list][*] +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, –2 Dexterity, –2 Charisma.[*] Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.[*] Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).[*] Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 90 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all.[*] Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. [*] Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).[*] +3 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.[*] +3 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.[*] +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.+2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.[*] +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.[*] Automatic Languages: Karamhul and one local human tongue. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Goblin, Halfling, Orog, and Terran.[*] Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass dwarf ’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing[*] Dwarves cannot be barbarians, paladins, or monks. A dwarf without the Shadow World Magic feat cannot be a sorcerer. A dwarf without a bloodline cannot be a wizard.

<!--QuoteBegin--ConjurerDragon@
Local human tongue as automatic language for every Orog? I can´t see EVERY Blood Skull Orog speaking Rjurik or EVERY Black Spear Tribe Orog speaking Khinasi or EVERY Iron Mountain? Orog speaking Vos language.
Why not a rule like in the 3.0 Monsters Manual under Goblins: "Goblins speak Goblin; those with Intelligence scores of 12 or above also speak common." Replace Goblin with Orog and common with local human language or Karamhul and it´s fine.
[/quote]To that I reply: <!--QuoteBegin--d20 v.3.5 SRD
GOBLINS AS CHARACTERS
Goblin characters possess the following racial traits.
[list][*]–2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, –2 Charisma.[*]Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, –4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 3/4 those of Medium characters.[*]A goblin’s base land speed is 30 feet.[*]Darkvision out to 60 feet.[*]+4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.[*]Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.[*]Favored Class: Rogue.
[/quote]

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by The Green Knight+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (The Green Knight)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>This I think is an exceedingly bad idea.
[/b]

What is so "exceedingly bad" about it?

Originally posted by The Green Knight@
Why is such a change necessary?

To me such a change is necessary because I (and indeed, others as well) think that LE orogs and NE goblins (as opposed to NE orogs and LE goblins) reflect better, under 3e terms and conditions of alignment, how orogs and goblins are described in the original Birthright material.

<!--QuoteBegin--The Green Knight
Goblins are social creatures that seem to be able to build strong social structures wherever they gather. Orogs, on the other hand, when they are not fighting external enemies they are fighting each other, making orog societies unstable at best.
[/quote]I&#39;m sorry, but that&#39;s not the impression I have of orogs.

[Osprey]

+8 Strength is approaching giant levels, yet Orogs are still only on the large side of Medium. How about +6 Strength and +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma? A bit more balanced, and makers orogs a bit tougher instead of being sheer aggression but nothing exceptional in endurance/toughness. +6 Str is about as far as I would push a Med.-sized creature without some strong justification behind why they&#39;re so incredibly strong. BRCS gives Orogs an avg. Str of 17, which I think is pretty reasonable when you consider that an Orog character (their favored class being fighter) will probably have a much higher strength than that: at +6, they could start out with a Strength as high as 24, and go higher with character levels&#33; And even putting their best stat at only above average (14 base), a typical "elite" Orog fighter (Fighter 1) will have 20-21 Strength&#33; Nothing to sneeze at...

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by Osprey@Nov 17 2003, 06:28 PM
+8 Strength is approaching giant levels, yet Orogs are still only on the large side of Medium. How about +6 Strength and +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma? A bit more balanced, and makers orogs a bit tougher instead of being sheer aggression but nothing exceptional in endurance/toughness. +6 Str is about as far as I would push a Med.-sized creature without some strong justification behind why they&#39;re so incredibly strong. BRCS gives Orogs an avg. Str of 17, which I think is pretty reasonable when you consider that an Orog character (their favored class being fighter) will probably have a much higher strength than that: at +6, they could start out with a Strength as high as 24, and go higher with character levels&#33; And even putting their best stat at only above average (14 base), a typical "elite" Orog fighter (Fighter 1) will have 20-21 Strength&#33; Nothing to sneeze at...

Well, the smallest, weakest giant around, the ogre, has +10, and they have 4 HD. As orogs have 3 HD, +8 Str seems about right to me. Or take orcs. They have have 1 HD and +4 Str. Orogs have 3 HD. That&#39;s 2 HD more. Again, +8 Str doesn&#39;t seem so bad to me. After all, bugbears have 4 points higher bonus to Str and 2 HD more than hobgoblins. So, by the same token, as orogs have 2 HD more than orcs, why wouldn&#39;t they be allowed 4 points higher bonus to Str than orcs as well?

[Arjan]

Op 18 Nov 2003 11:18 CET schreef U:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php...=2&t=2086<br />
>

> the Falcon wrote:

>

Originally posted by Osprey@Nov 17 2003, 06:28 PM
8 Strength is approaching giant levels, yet Orogs are still only on the large side of Medium. How about 6 Strength and 2 Constitution, -2 Charisma? A bit more balanced, and makers orogs a bit tougher instead of being sheer aggression but nothing exceptional in endurance/toughness. 6 Str is about as far as I would push a Med.-sized creature without some strong justification behind why they`re so incredibly strong. BRCS gives Orogs an avg. Str of 17, which I think is pretty reasonable when you consider that an Orog character (their favored class being fighter) will probably have a much higher strength than that: at 6, they could start out with a Strength as high as 24, and go higher with character levels&#33; And even putting their best stat at only above average (14 base), a typical "elite" Orog fighter (Fighter 1) will have 20-21 Strength&#33; Nothing to sneeze at...

Well, the smal

> lest, weakest giant around, the ogre, has 10, and they have 4 HD. As orogs have 3 HD, 8 Str seems about right to me. Or take orcs. They have have 1 HD and 4 Str. Orogs have 3 HD. That`s 2 HD more. Again, 6 Str doesn`t seem so bad to me. After all, bugbears have 4 points higher bonus to Str and 2 HD more than hobgoblins. So, by the same token, as orogs have 2 HD more than orcs, why wouldn`t they be allowed 4 points higher bonus to Str than orcs as well?

I think 6 is reasonable as well
But i dont see the relative relation between HD and strength modifier?? just because you have more HD doesnt mean you have more strength and the other way arround

Arjan