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Thread: Ranking Awnsheghlien
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11-14-2003, 08:53 PM #11
At 05:33 PM 11/14/2003 +0100, lordofallandnothing wrote:
> I actually like this idea of having a tier structure of the brood of
> azrai.
> I would make the level 1 be just those with his blood whether they are
> good , neutral or evil.
> Level 2 would be those that have actually transformed and all but do not
> have a realm of their own...yet :)
> Level three would be those that transformed and had their own realm
> And i would have a level 4 for those tha had their own realm and were
> transformed and were getting close to godhood-like the gorgon
One of the things that I think hasn`t gotten quite the attention in BR that
it deserves is not just the transformation of those with Azrai`s bloodline
and the optional transformation of those with other derivations, but the
requirement or access to that transformation for scions, and I`m thinking
that it is in this aspect of the bloodline system that I think we might
find a use for the terms "lesser" and "major" in regards to awnsheghlien
and ersheghlien. That is, scions of Azrai do not simply choose to become
awnsheghlien (though they might) they must fight off the transformation
into awnsheghlien.
I don`t think a lot of people have really recognized that in the original
bloodline system awnsheghlien are NOT required to have the bloodform blood
ability. Many of the major awnsheghlien, in fact, don`t have that blood
ability. Even the one for whom the blood abilities are speculated in the
BE text (Apocalypse) the writer of that entry, the fictional Daznig, does
not speculate that that creature might have the Bloodform blood
ability. Yet, he classifies him as a "major" awnsheghlien. Frankly, we
could have done without that particular creature`s description. He is
extraneous. He and several other major awnsheghlien are described as not
having appeared in Cerilia for many years. Yet there he is, misty face and
all.
So it still begs the question, what does major and lesser mean? Some
evidence that we might take into consideration.
1. Among the lesser awnsheghlien section are listed not just awnsheghlien
but ersheghlien AND simply blooded scions.
2. No ershegh is described as being a "major" ersheghlien.
3. In fact, ersheghlien fall under the "& other NPCs" section of the title
of that chapter of BE.
4. The transformation of scions into ersheghlien is described in BE and in
other texts as being a completely voluntary effort. Scions of other
derivations must choose to transform, where the transformation of Azrai`s
scions is involuntary, and sometimes even something the character dreads.
[When I write up an ersheghlien like "Ursus" or the upcoming "Nightbird" I
take pains to describe not just the personality of the creature in
question, but to give that character motivation for wanting to cast off
his/her humanity and change into some bestial form. Without such a
motivation the transformation into the ershegh form is somewhat
inexplicable--no matter how useful or cool that form might be. I`m working
on an essay I`m calling "A Guide to Birthright`s Mythic Monsters and
Legendary Beings" in which this issue and a few others are addressed.]
In the post that started off this thread I listed several things that might
be used to differentiate between lesser and major awnsheghlien, along with
examples of why those things didn`t actually work. I`m left with one of
two conclusions:
1. It`s a combination of two or more of those factors that makes an
awnshegh "major".
2. It`s something else entirely.
Right now I`m leaning towards the second option, and the thing I think
might make for the best explanation of what the categorization means is the
speed/requirement with which the transformation of the scion into an
awnshegh occurs. Every scion of Azrai can become an awnsheghlien, whether
s/he has the Bloodform ability or not. The powers of the transformation
might be more pronounced for those with Bloodform(major) and even more
significant for those with Bloodform(great) but the speed of transformation
need not necessarily be connected to that blood ability, or the difficulty
of resisting shifts having to do with their bloodline. Since all scions of
Azrai must fight the temptation of their blood there should be some process
for reflecting that.
Since we`re using 3e rules now (one could still use this in 2e, but it`s
easier in 3e IMO) probably the easiest way to reflect this is using a
template to reflect what being a "major" awnsheghlien means, and having a
system for characters to resist the pull of their Azrai derivation when
they level up. Let`s say, for instance, that a scion of Azrai must make a
will save whenever he earns a level. The DC of that save could be 5+ new
character level. If the save is failed then the character`s alignment
shifts one place towards neutral evil. A lawful good character becomes
lawful neutral, or neutral good, while a chaotic neutral character becomes
either neutral evil or chaotic evil. If the save is failed by 5 or more
the character must take a level in an Awnsheghlien character class rather
than a level in whatever class they would prefer.
Within that context, the template for a "major awnsheghlien" might be
something very simple. It`s either a template or a feat that they take
that gives some bloodline related benefit--a +2 to their Bld checks, an
additional blood ability, or whatever else seemed sensible. However, the
DC for their will saves made when levelling up are +5 higher than they
would be normally. Furthermore, scions of Azrai who have already taken a
level in an Awnsheghlien character class might also get a +5 to the DC of
their will save, as might those who are already lawful evil.
Using a system like that would not only explain what being a major or
lesser awnsheghlien might mean, but also would reflect the corrupting
effect of Azrai`s bloodline on characters like Rhoubhe (whose alignment has
changed) or the concerns of the Vos paladin Teodar Profiev (RoE p74) whose
bloodline will eventually force him to lose his paladinhood.
Furthermore, if one wanted to have "major ersheghlien" one could do that
too just by having them take that feat or apply that template. Their will
save might shift them more towards the alignment of their derivation and
require them to take levels in an Ersheghlien character class.
Gary
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11-23-2003, 12:47 AM #12
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Gary I think your right on here
There is a discussion very related to this one that is going on in the BRCS playtest comments and I know you have posted to it. I think that the differentiation between minor and major Awnsegh could be based on a set of ECL's. Minor could have an ecl range for their monster levels that is lower than the major ones.
I truthfully think we run into a wall when updating somethings that were never fully explained within the original material and when we encounter such things it may be better to simply begin from scratch and make changes. Now please dont shoot me for saying that but with the new rules somethings lend themselves to be completly refitted and retooled. This may be one of them.
The Former Osric Ilien
-Blooood!
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11-23-2003, 01:51 AM #13
At 01:47 AM 11/23/2003 +0100, OsricIlien wrote:
>I think that the differentiation between minor and major Awnsegh could be
>based on a set of ECL`s. Minor could have an ecl range for their monster
>levels that is lower than the major ones.
Right now I`m leaning towards the pace of transformation as part of an
awn-/ersheghlien class. Characters who take levels in that class will
transform according to whether they just have the blood of Azrai, whether
they have the Bloodform/trait(major) ability, and whether they have the
Bloodform/trait(great) ability. Basically it just controls the pace of
their transformation and disadvantages.
Gary
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11-23-2003, 05:23 PM #14
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Thats exactley what I was thinking.
The Former Osric Ilien
-Blooood!
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11-24-2003, 11:53 AM #15
Something like this:
- Tainted Awnshegh (example: The Ghule)
- Minor Awnshegh (example: The Wolf)
- Major Awnshegh (example: The Basilisk)
- Great Awnshegh (example: The Magian)
- True Awnshegh (Example: The Gorgon)
Maybe we can create other names for the ranking to not confuse it with the bloodline...May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!
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11-24-2003, 11:58 AM #16
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11-24-2003, 09:23 PM #17
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Ariadne schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...=ST&f=2&t=2084
>
> Ariadne wrote:
>Originally Posted by geeman,Nov 11 2003, 06:43 PM
Hightened Ability (int). That`s all. There are blooded scions of
Azrai, who are more Awnshegh
than he is...
Perhaps he is more than he seems to be?
After all Danzig has no perfect record of truth about every Abomination,
but only the descriptions of those who met him, which can be wrong partly.
How would a perfectly normal wolf with only a little more brain seduce a
female human being to become his mate and want to become a female wolf?
Perhaps he has some form of charm aura as well but it is not mentioned?
How does he, even with the wolf pack he leads, "control" more than one
province? Does he control more than one wolf pack? Can he control other
wolves, not just lead those of his own pack?
bye
Michael
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11-25-2003, 12:17 AM #18
At 12:58 PM 11/24/2003 +0100, Ariadne wrote:
>Originally Posted by geeman,Nov 11 2003, 06:43 PM
>I still question me, why the Wolf is an awnshegh at all. He has a tainted
>bloodline with Hightened Ability (int). That`s all. There are blooded
>scions of Azrai, who are more Awnshegh than he is...
He is "large" rather than medium-sized for 3e wolves (they were "small" in
2e.) In 3e, of course, size can change for creatures whose hit dice are
advanced (even though there doesn`t appear to be much rhyme or reason to
the size increases in the MM) but back in the day only extraordinary things
changed the size of a creature, so it was more dramatic to have him grow to
horse-size.
It also may indicate the form his transformation is going to take. Other
animal based awnsheghlien seem to grow larger as much as they do transform
into monstrous shapes. Given that he`s such a "low-level" awnshegh the
amount of changes he`s gone through is probably relatively slight. At CR
8-12 he might be a size category larger, and his bite might grow more
dramatic. He could gain a bonus to his movement rate, a deafening howl,
more companions....
Personally, I`m starting to lean towards character descriptions including a
table that outlines the advancement from 1st through 20th level a la the
examples in the DMG. In some cases that`s overkill, but for many DMs I
think it would be more helpful than the "scaling the adventure" standard
that Dungeon has adopted.
Gary
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