Ranking Awnsheghlien

[geeman]

At 05:33 PM 11/14/2003 +0100, lordofallandnothing wrote:



> I actually like this idea of having a tier structure of the brood of

> azrai.

> I would make the level 1 be just those with his blood whether they are

> good , neutral or evil.

> Level 2 would be those that have actually transformed and all but do not

> have a realm of their own...yet :)

> Level three would be those that transformed and had their own realm

> And i would have a level 4 for those tha had their own realm and were

> transformed and were getting close to godhood-like the gorgon



One of the things that I think hasn`t gotten quite the attention in BR that

it deserves is not just the transformation of those with Azrai`s bloodline

and the optional transformation of those with other derivations, but the

requirement or access to that transformation for scions, and I`m thinking

that it is in this aspect of the bloodline system that I think we might

find a use for the terms "lesser" and "major" in regards to awnsheghlien

and ersheghlien. That is, scions of Azrai do not simply choose to become

awnsheghlien (though they might) they must fight off the transformation

into awnsheghlien.



I don`t think a lot of people have really recognized that in the original

bloodline system awnsheghlien are NOT required to have the bloodform blood

ability. Many of the major awnsheghlien, in fact, don`t have that blood

ability. Even the one for whom the blood abilities are speculated in the

BE text (Apocalypse) the writer of that entry, the fictional Daznig, does

not speculate that that creature might have the Bloodform blood

ability. Yet, he classifies him as a "major" awnsheghlien. Frankly, we

could have done without that particular creature`s description. He is

extraneous. He and several other major awnsheghlien are described as not

having appeared in Cerilia for many years. Yet there he is, misty face and

all.



So it still begs the question, what does major and lesser mean? Some

evidence that we might take into consideration.



1. Among the lesser awnsheghlien section are listed not just awnsheghlien

but ersheghlien AND simply blooded scions.



2. No ershegh is described as being a "major" ersheghlien.



3. In fact, ersheghlien fall under the "& other NPCs" section of the title

of that chapter of BE.



4. The transformation of scions into ersheghlien is described in BE and in

other texts as being a completely voluntary effort. Scions of other

derivations must choose to transform, where the transformation of Azrai`s

scions is involuntary, and sometimes even something the character dreads.



[When I write up an ersheghlien like "Ursus" or the upcoming "Nightbird" I

take pains to describe not just the personality of the creature in

question, but to give that character motivation for wanting to cast off

his/her humanity and change into some bestial form. Without such a

motivation the transformation into the ershegh form is somewhat

inexplicable--no matter how useful or cool that form might be. I`m working

on an essay I`m calling "A Guide to Birthright`s Mythic Monsters and

Legendary Beings" in which this issue and a few others are addressed.]



In the post that started off this thread I listed several things that might

be used to differentiate between lesser and major awnsheghlien, along with

examples of why those things didn`t actually work. I`m left with one of

two conclusions:



1. It`s a combination of two or more of those factors that makes an

awnshegh "major".



2. It`s something else entirely.



Right now I`m leaning towards the second option, and the thing I think

might make for the best explanation of what the categorization means is the

speed/requirement with which the transformation of the scion into an

awnshegh occurs. Every scion of Azrai can become an awnsheghlien, whether

s/he has the Bloodform ability or not. The powers of the transformation

might be more pronounced for those with Bloodform(major) and even more

significant for those with Bloodform(great) but the speed of transformation

need not necessarily be connected to that blood ability, or the difficulty

of resisting shifts having to do with their bloodline. Since all scions of

Azrai must fight the temptation of their blood there should be some process

for reflecting that.



Since we`re using 3e rules now (one could still use this in 2e, but it`s

easier in 3e IMO) probably the easiest way to reflect this is using a

template to reflect what being a "major" awnsheghlien means, and having a

system for characters to resist the pull of their Azrai derivation when

they level up. Let`s say, for instance, that a scion of Azrai must make a

will save whenever he earns a level. The DC of that save could be 5+ new

character level. If the save is failed then the character`s alignment

shifts one place towards neutral evil. A lawful good character becomes

lawful neutral, or neutral good, while a chaotic neutral character becomes

either neutral evil or chaotic evil. If the save is failed by 5 or more

the character must take a level in an Awnsheghlien character class rather

than a level in whatever class they would prefer.



Within that context, the template for a "major awnsheghlien" might be

something very simple. It`s either a template or a feat that they take

that gives some bloodline related benefit--a +2 to their Bld checks, an

additional blood ability, or whatever else seemed sensible. However, the

DC for their will saves made when levelling up are +5 higher than they

would be normally. Furthermore, scions of Azrai who have already taken a

level in an Awnsheghlien character class might also get a +5 to the DC of

their will save, as might those who are already lawful evil.



Using a system like that would not only explain what being a major or

lesser awnsheghlien might mean, but also would reflect the corrupting

effect of Azrai`s bloodline on characters like Rhoubhe (whose alignment has

changed) or the concerns of the Vos paladin Teodar Profiev (RoE p74) whose

bloodline will eventually force him to lose his paladinhood.



Furthermore, if one wanted to have "major ersheghlien" one could do that

too just by having them take that feat or apply that template. Their will

save might shift them more towards the alignment of their derivation and

require them to take levels in an Ersheghlien character class.



Gary

[OsricIlien]

Gary I think your right on here

There is a discussion very related to this one that is going on in the BRCS playtest comments and I know you have posted to it. I think that the differentiation between minor and major Awnsegh could be based on a set of ECL's. Minor could have an ecl range for their monster levels that is lower than the major ones.

I truthfully think we run into a wall when updating somethings that were never fully explained within the original material and when we encounter such things it may be better to simply begin from scratch and make changes. Now please dont shoot me for saying that but with the new rules somethings lend themselves to be completly refitted and retooled. This may be one of them.

[geeman]

At 01:47 AM 11/23/2003 +0100, OsricIlien wrote:



>I think that the differentiation between minor and major Awnsegh could be

>based on a set of ECL`s. Minor could have an ecl range for their monster

>levels that is lower than the major ones.



Right now I`m leaning towards the pace of transformation as part of an

awn-/ersheghlien class. Characters who take levels in that class will

transform according to whether they just have the blood of Azrai, whether

they have the Bloodform/trait(major) ability, and whether they have the

Bloodform/trait(great) ability. Basically it just controls the pace of

their transformation and disadvantages.



Gary

[OsricIlien]

Thats exactley what I was thinking.

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Raesene Andu@Nov 11 2003, 07:58 AM
Perhaps we should such scrap the whole idea of Major and Lesser Awnshegh.

Maybe we could create a system like the bloodline system based on bloodline srength and ECL.

Something like this:

• Tainted Awnshegh (example: The Ghule)
• Minor Awnshegh (example: The Wolf)
• Major Awnshegh (example: The Basilisk)
• Great Awnshegh (example: The Magian)
• True Awnshegh (Example: The Gorgon)

Maybe we can create other names for the ranking to not confuse it with the bloodline...

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by geeman@Nov 11 2003, 06:43 PM
The Wolf, by contrast, is 6th level with a tainted bloodline, and probably the weakest awnshegh in all
the BR products.

I still question me, why the Wolf is an awnshegh at all. He has a tainted bloodline with Hightened Ability (int). That's all. There are blooded scions of Azrai, who are more Awnshegh than he is...

[ConjurerDragon]

Ariadne schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...=ST&f=2&t=2084

>

> Ariadne wrote:

>

The Wolf, by contrast, is 6th level with a tainted

bloodline, and probably the weakest awnshegh in all

> the BR products.

> I still question me, why the Wolf is an awnshegh at all. He has a tainted bloodline with

Hightened Ability (int). That`s all. There are blooded scions of

Azrai, who are more Awnshegh

than he is...



Perhaps he is more than he seems to be?

After all Danzig has no perfect record of truth about every Abomination,

but only the descriptions of those who met him, which can be wrong partly.



How would a perfectly normal wolf with only a little more brain seduce a

female human being to become his mate and want to become a female wolf?

Perhaps he has some form of charm aura as well but it is not mentioned?

How does he, even with the wolf pack he leads, "control" more than one

province? Does he control more than one wolf pack? Can he control other

wolves, not just lead those of his own pack?

bye

Michael

[geeman]

At 12:58 PM 11/24/2003 +0100, Ariadne wrote:



>

The Wolf, by contrast, is 6th level

> with a tainted bloodline, and probably the weakest awnshegh in all

> the BR products.

>

>I still question me, why the Wolf is an awnshegh at all. He has a tainted

>bloodline with Hightened Ability (int). That`s all. There are blooded

>scions of Azrai, who are more Awnshegh than he is...



He is "large" rather than medium-sized for 3e wolves (they were "small" in

2e.) In 3e, of course, size can change for creatures whose hit dice are

advanced (even though there doesn`t appear to be much rhyme or reason to

the size increases in the MM) but back in the day only extraordinary things

changed the size of a creature, so it was more dramatic to have him grow to

horse-size.



It also may indicate the form his transformation is going to take. Other

animal based awnsheghlien seem to grow larger as much as they do transform

into monstrous shapes. Given that he`s such a "low-level" awnshegh the

amount of changes he`s gone through is probably relatively slight. At CR

8-12 he might be a size category larger, and his bite might grow more

dramatic. He could gain a bonus to his movement rate, a deafening howl,

more companions....



Personally, I`m starting to lean towards character descriptions including a

table that outlines the advancement from 1st through 20th level a la the

examples in the DMG. In some cases that`s overkill, but for many DMs I

think it would be more helpful than the "scaling the adventure" standard

that Dungeon has adopted.



Gary