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Thread: Ranking Awnsheghlien
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11-10-2003, 11:38 PM #1
OK, here`s a somewhat long musing on something that most people probably
could give a DNA sample about, but I`ve been writing up a lot of these new
awnsheghlien and ersheghlien lately, and something has occurred to me that
I`m curious what the folks in the BR community think about it.
In Blood Enemies the terms "major" and "lesser" are used to describe
awnsheghlien, each category getting their own section of that
text. (Presumably, ersheghlien could also be so categorized.) There is
not, however, a lot to indicate what those terms mean. What makes an
awnsheghlien "major" or "lesser"? Here are four possible things that might
determine a character`s classification in either category:
1. Whether the Bloodform or Bloodtrait ability that makes them
awn-/ersheghlien is a major ability or a great ability might determine
whether an awnsheghlien is "lesser" or "major". Unfortunately, we have no
information on what the distinction is between characters with major or
great Bloodform or Bloodtrait abilities in Blood Enemies. Unlike other
blood ability descriptions, the differences between major and great
manifestations of these blood abilities is notably absent, leaving open for
speculation exactly what the difference is between a major and a great
manifestation of that blood ability. Presumably, it has to do with the
strength of the form transformed into (a character with Bloodform(major)
might transform into The Lion, while Bloodform(great) could become The
Sphinx) and/or the speed with which the transformation occurs or some
combination of those factors, but that`s open for speculation. (The 3e
BRCS Playtest does have a little section in each blood ability in which the
minor, major and great powers are extolled, but it is also silent in the
case of Bloodform and Bloodtrait on just what the difference might
be.) When it comes to classification, at least, this might serve as the
thing that determines which category the creature fits into.
2. Similarly, the categorizations might be based on the power of the
bloodline. Lesser awn-/ersheghlien might be those with tainted and minor
bloodlines, while those with major bloodlines or above might be major
awn-/ersheghlien.
3. Being a "lesser" or "greater" awn-/ersheghlien might be determined by
political prominence rather than bloodline. A greater awn-/ersheghlien
might be one that has a domain, so the difference between them could be
analogous to the difference between a scion and a regent.
4. The distinction might be drawn based on the relative power of the
character. As in, what their effective level might be. Characters of a
particular level might be described as major, while those who are still
relatively inexperienced might be lesser.
There are, however, things that indicate that none of these things can be
what determines which category the character falls under. Specifically:
1. Several of the creatures described in the "Major Awnsheghlien" section
of Blood Enemies do not have Bloodform(great) amongst their list of blood
abilities. The Banshegh, the Raven and Rhoubhe have Bloodform at major
power not great. As a matter of fact, Apocolypse, the Harpy, the Hydra,
the Kraken, the Leviathan, Maalvar the Minotaur, the Magian, the Siren, the
White Witch and the Wolf don`t have Bloodform at all. That`s too many to
really discount as typos or errors of omission, so it would appear that
having Bloodform or not has little to do with being a lesser or greater
awnsheghlien.
2. Again, several of the creatures described as major awnsheghlien do not
have very powerful bloodline strength ratings. Several even have
relatively low bloodline strength ratings. The Boar is tainted(16), the
Harpy tainted(18), the White Witch is minor(20) and the Wolf is
tainted(11). Conversely, the Swordhawk appears in the "Lesser
Awnsheghlien" section and he has a major(??) bloodline.
3. It also can`t be control of a realm that determines if a creature is
lesser or greater because several of the awnsheghlien described as major
(Apocalypse, Kraken, Leviathan, Seadrake) don`t control provinces or
holdings--though it is possible there is an aerial or underwater version of
the domain level that isn`t addressed in the books. A couple of other
major awnsheghlien (the Boar and the Wolf) don`t appear to actually control
the provinces they reside in. Though the provinces they dominate are
noted, both have text stating that the actual control of those provinces is
by another regent, and stats for RP collected/accumulated for these two
creatures is notably absent. Even if we do suppose that all those
awnsheghlien control domains per normal, however, there`s still a problem
in that the Swordhawk does control a domain--a pretty extensive one at
that--yet he appears in the "Lesser Awnsheghlien" section of Blood
Enemies. In fact, the Swordhawk`s realm, transformation and influence
would seem to warrant his own entry in Blood Enemies.
4. This last one is more difficult to gage because we don`t have stats for
many of the lesser awnsheghlien. However, the Vampire is 10th level, the
Banshegh and the Lamia are 9th level, while the Siren the Wolf are merely
6th (or, at least, they save as characters of those levels.) If the cut
off point is 6th level that`s pretty low for someone to get classified in
the same group that contains the Gorgon, the Magian and Rhoubhe. And
there`s still a problem with the troublesomely classified "lesser
awnsheghlien" the Swordhawk in that he is 18th level.
I`m curious about this for a couple of reasons. First, to try to figure
out if there`s some sort of means and method to the
classification. Second, because there tends to be things in BR (bloodline
strength, for instance) that have very little actual game mechanical
significance, but do relate to the bloodline system itself, and are
significant for purposes of theme, role-playing, etc. Lastly, there`s
nothing to say that one can`t have some sort of significance to the
difference between minor and major creatures.
None of the above classification methods necessarily work then given the
actual characters in the published materials, and there are too many
examples that refute the schemes to ignore. So what is it that classifies
some awnsheghlien as "major" and others as "lesser"?
Gary
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11-11-2003, 12:59 AM #2(The 3e
BRCS Playtest does have a little section in each blood ability in which the
minor, major and great powers are extolled, but it is also silent in the
case of Bloodform and Bloodtrait on just what the difference might
be.)
I've always thought the great ability should grant more power per monster level gained - more "monster traits" if you will - which could result in a more powerful monster, ultimately.
As to your ultimate question of classification: don't you think the writers of Blood Enemies might just have used the lesser/greater descriptors as generalized categories? I know, I know, you break everything down into the exacting detail of a point system, but I'd never assume the writers did so. No doubt it won't be long before you have broken down all of the above factors (bloodline strength, Bloodform/-Trait level, regent vs. scion, and total character level) into a point system that gives you a net strength rating with appropriate denominators.
Seriously, though, I doubt the writers were so logical...if you're hunting for that method in the seeming inconsistencies of Blood Spawn, you might go loopy trying to figure out a logic that was never very precise! :blink:
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11-11-2003, 06:58 AM #3
Perhaps we should such scrap the whole idea of Major and Lesser Awnshegh.
I personally would not consider the Boar or the Wolf to be major Awnshegh. Certainly they are powerful, but nothing when combared the the Gorgon, the Raven, or even the Swordhawk.
One thing to note is that all the lesser Awnshegh are either dead, Erhsegh, only blooded, or still undergoing their transformation. The Swordhawk falls into the last category, he has only just started becoming an Awnshegh (although he has been alive for at least 200 years, so he must also have the long life blood abilities).
If you take Blood Enemies as a book written by Daznig, then those who fall into the Major category are well know, their powers and abilities recorded, while those who fall into the lesser catergory are less well known, although they still may be quite powerful. Daznig was unable to learn anything more than vague rumours about them.Let me claim your Birthright!!
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11-11-2003, 01:39 PM #4
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Don't forget that we will need to seperate the Awnshegh from the realm if we are to get a true look at the poer of the Blood.
A good example would be Karl Bissel, the Swordhawk. If you look at him *and* Massenmarch, he is a very powerful opponent. Without his realm, He isn't nearly as tough as alot of the awnsheghlin out there."It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion -- and usually easier."
- R. A. Heinlien, from The Collected works of Lazarus Long
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11-11-2003, 05:43 PM #5
At 02:39 PM 11/11/2003 +0100, Athos69 wrote:
> Don`t forget that we will need to seperate the Awnshegh from the realm
> if we are to get a true look at the poer of the Blood.
>
> A good example would be Karl Bissel, the Swordhawk. If you look at him
> *and* Massenmarch, he is a very powerful opponent. Without his realm, He
> isn`t nearly as tough as alot of the awnsheghlin out there.
The Swordhawk is actually relatively powerful in his own right in relation
to other awnsheghlien, particularly some of the "major" ones. He can`t
match up to the Gorgon, Magian or the Raven, but as an 18th level character
with a major bloodline he`s got some juice. The Wolf, by contrast, is 6th
level with a tainted bloodline, and probably the weakest awnshegh in all
the BR products. Exactly why he dominates three provinces while other,
much more powerful creatures can only control one (Rhoubhe, the Spider,
etc.) is a matter for conjecture. His "realm" is out in the boonies, as it
were, and his control over those provinces is marginal at best. Even
though the Wolf doesn`t actually control those provinces, though, his
influence seems inordinate given his actual character description.
Anyway, what I`m thinking right now in regards to this issue is that maybe
there should be three progressions for those with Azrai`s bloodline:
Corrupted: Any scion with Azrai`s derivation. Several awnshegh are simply
transformed by the corrupting influence of Azrai`s bloodline. The effort
to remain human (and good-aligned) is something that these characters must
constantly maintain, but their transformation is in many ways
inevitable. The power of Azrai is too strong for a mere mortal to fight
off forever.
Lesser and Greater Awnsheghlien: I`ve not really decided what the
differences should be for these characters, but if I can find some
commonality to the existing ones I`ll base it on that.
Gary
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11-11-2003, 05:43 PM #6
At 07:58 AM 11/11/2003 +0100, Raesene Andu wrote:
> Perhaps we should such scrap the whole idea of Major and Lesser Awnshegh.
I have a feeling something can be derived out of this, which is why I`m
bothering. The designation doesn`t mean anything at present--kind of like
bloodline strength didn`t mean much in the original materials--but that
doesn`t mean it shouldn`t. At the very least, however, I think there`s
some worth to the concept in that it conveys role-playing dynamics. Some
characters are "major" while others are "lesser". That can have an effect
on how a player or DM interacts with/plays those characters.
Aside from such role-playing issues, however, I think some game effects
might be appropriate. As in, major awnsheghlien have a bonus to various
effects, like their ability to intimidate, perform bloodtheft,
whatever. What if, for instance, "Major Awnsheghlien" is a feat that
grants effects similar to the blooded feats in the BRCS? The distinction
could be something as simple as that, and with relatively minor actual game
effects.
> One thing to note is that all the lesser Awnshegh are either dead,
> Erhsegh, only blooded, or still undergoing their transformation. The
> Swordhawk falls into the last category, he has only just started becoming
> an Awnshegh (although he has been alive for at least 200 years, so he
> must also have the long life blood abilities).
The amount of transformation is another possible difference between major
and lesser awnsheghlien. Several of the existing ones, however, would seem
to defy this method. The Siren, for instance, is not particularly
transformed. Others are kind of questionable. The Banshegh and the White
Witch may be transformed, or they may not. They retain pretty much their
human appearance, with notable and temporary changes which may or may not
even be tied to their awnshegh nature.
> If you take Blood Enemies as a book written by Daznig, then those who
> fall into the Major category are well know, their powers and abilities
> recorded, while those who fall into the lesser catergory are less well
> known, although they still may be quite powerful. Daznig was unable to
> learn anything more than vague rumours about them.
That`s certainly a working definition. "Major Awnsheghlien: those who have
a write up with background, character stats and other information in
BE. Minor Awnsheghlien: those who have at most only a brief
description." In the long run, though, I think I`d prefer something more
substantial :)
Gary
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11-11-2003, 05:43 PM #7
At 01:59 AM 11/11/2003 +0100, Osprey wrote:
>(The 3e
> BRCS Playtest does have a little section in each blood ability in which the
> minor, major and great powers are extolled, but it is also silent in the
> case of Bloodform and Bloodtrait on just what the difference might
> be.)
> Check out the monsters section (later chapter, #?) where it describes
> how to make your own Awnsheighlien. I recall it mentioning that a Great
> Bloodtrait allows for a monster level to be gained every level of
> advancement, while a Major version of the ability allowed for something
> like every other level (don`t quote me on that). Point being the great
> ability allowed for more rapid transformation than the major version.
Ah, OK. I found it. Note to the BR Team guys: The section in Chapter 9
that introduces awnsheghlien should probably appear later along with the
actual game mechanics. As it is, the reference to that chapter is a bit
vague in that there`s two sections (the first on pp161-162 and the second
section starting on p174) in that chapter. Putting them together would
help the layout a bit.
> As to your ultimate question of classification: don`t you think the
> writers of Blood Enemies might just have used the lesser/greater
> descriptors as generalized categories? I know, I know, you break
> everything down into the exacting detail of a point system, but I`d never
> assume the writers did so. No doubt it won`t be long before you have
> broken down all of the above factors (bloodline strength,
> Bloodform/-Trait level, regent vs. scion, and total character level) into
> a point system that gives you a net strength rating with appropriate
> denominators. ;)
Heaven forbid.... We might end up having to dust off the abacus.
As for what the original BR writers had in mind, I can`t really say. The
BR texts were subject to a rather haphazard editing, which was pretty
common to all D&D products to be honest. I _think_ there`s something
worthwhile in this issue, however, so I`d like to bounce it off the folks
around here. For instance, I`m pretty sure we need a more generalized
system of creating awnsheghlien. The method proposed by the BRCS is a good
place to start, but in the long run it`s a bit abstract for actual use. On
the other hand, I think my own class system for awnsheghlien/ersheghlien is
too limited to reflect the varieties of the concept, since there are more
aspects to it than I think have really be considered before. In the long
run, I hope some exploration of the concept as a whole can be derived from
this basic point.
Gary
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11-11-2003, 05:43 PM #8
I think this is a pretty useless exercise. What is the point in
generalizing and putting things in labeled boxes?
I`d say this distinction is of purely meta-game interest, and even then
I cannot say I perceive any immediate benefits. If this is part of an
effort to formalize the creation of awnsheghlien, I`m all against it.
Awnsheghlien are unique NPCs that should each be master-crafted from
scratch to fit each individual campaign.
Cheers
Bjørn
-----Original Message-----
From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
[mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Gary
Sent: 11. november 2003 17:24
To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
Subject: Re: Ranking Awnsheghlien [2#2084]
At 07:58 AM 11/11/2003 +0100, Raesene Andu wrote:
> Perhaps we should such scrap the whole idea of Major and Lesser
Awnshegh.
I have a feeling something can be derived out of this, which is why I`m
bothering. The designation doesn`t mean anything at present--kind of
like
bloodline strength didn`t mean much in the original materials--but that
doesn`t mean it shouldn`t. At the very least, however, I think there`s
some worth to the concept in that it conveys role-playing dynamics.
Some
characters are "major" while others are "lesser". That can have an
effect
on how a player or DM interacts with/plays those characters.
Aside from such role-playing issues, however, I think some game effects
might be appropriate. As in, major awnsheghlien have a bonus to various
effects, like their ability to intimidate, perform bloodtheft,
whatever. What if, for instance, "Major Awnsheghlien" is a feat that
grants effects similar to the blooded feats in the BRCS? The
distinction
could be something as simple as that, and with relatively minor actual
game
effects.
> One thing to note is that all the lesser Awnshegh are either dead,
> Erhsegh, only blooded, or still undergoing their transformation. The
> Swordhawk falls into the last category, he has only just started
becoming
> an Awnshegh (although he has been alive for at least 200 years, so he
> must also have the long life blood abilities).
The amount of transformation is another possible difference between
major
and lesser awnsheghlien. Several of the existing ones, however, would
seem
to defy this method. The Siren, for instance, is not particularly
transformed. Others are kind of questionable. The Banshegh and the
White
Witch may be transformed, or they may not. They retain pretty much
their
human appearance, with notable and temporary changes which may or may
not
even be tied to their awnshegh nature.
> If you take Blood Enemies as a book written by Daznig, then those who
> fall into the Major category are well know, their powers and abilities
> recorded, while those who fall into the lesser catergory are less well
> known, although they still may be quite powerful. Daznig was unable to
> learn anything more than vague rumours about them.
That`s certainly a working definition. "Major Awnsheghlien: those who
have
a write up with background, character stats and other information in
BE. Minor Awnsheghlien: those who have at most only a brief
description." In the long run, though, I think I`d prefer something
more
substantial :)
Gary
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11-11-2003, 05:43 PM #9
At 06:06 PM 11/11/2003 +0100, Bjørn wrote:
>Awnsheghlien are unique NPCs that should each be master-crafted from
>scratch to fit each individual campaign.
I`m all for customizing NPCs for an individual campaign, but that doesn`t
preclude guidelines for going about it, does it? As always one can ignore
such guidelines or use them as one likes, but having some sort of method
for going about master crafting such characters is a good thing,
particularly for something that is going to go out to a broad group of
people who can then have some common ground from which to discuss the
characters and come up with new ones.
Gary
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11-14-2003, 04:33 PM #10
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I actually like this idea of having a tier structure of the brood of azrai.
I would make the level 1 be just those with his blood whether they are good , neutral or evil.
Level 2 would be those that have actually transformed and all but do not have a realm of their own...yet
Level three would be those that transformed and had their own realm
And i would have a level 4 for those tha had their own realm and were transformed and were getting close to godhood-like the gorgon
Is all just my opinion though here.
Later all
peaceCheck this out From Thanatos Arch-Necromancer of undeath
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