Wizards And Sorcerers

[Osprey]

I understand the elf-sorcerer connection and the intuitive/instinctual logic...to me the real question is how much elves value literacy. There's really little room to maneuver around the fact that one of the main distinguishing characteristics of wizards is literacy. Spellbooks, scribing scrolls, formulaic thought...all central wizardly concepts.
In truth, elves as sorcerers makes a great deal of story-driven sense, especially if sorcerers in Cerilia are intuitively attuned to mebhaighal rather than dragon magic as Greyhawk sorcerers are. The chaotic tendencies of elves certainly fits the sorcerer's path quite well...
It also makes sense that a race of immortals would have less need of literacy to preserve history, and as such be a less "litero-centric" culture (I think that's an invented term, hence the quotes). Why bother with books when you can ask a living witness about events from centuries or even millenia ago? Or about any other sort of knowledge for that matter?
On the other hand, it's pretty established that elves do have a written language/alphabet, so there must be some who think it worthwhile to preserve or record knowledge, etc. It's been proposed that elves may very well forget things almost as often as they learn them, being creatures of the moment, so one could imagine how writing could then become important. And thus, we could imagine the evolution of elven wizards who think magic is equally important to be recorded and preserved, lest it be forgotten. Heh heh, imagine the ancient elven sorcerer, feared and respected by most elves and mortals, because they don't realize that he's forgotten most of what he once knew...fishing seems so much more attractive to him these days!

Anyways, just thought I'd post thoughts on both sides of the fence - my ultimate postion is to leave it that elves can choose any arcane spellcasting class as a favored class, with an inclusion that sorcerers and bards are most common amongst the Sidhelien. Their natural talents are for arcane magic - period. It is up to the individual to determine which past best suits them.

-Osprey

[RaspK_FOG]

Bot your point... The reason I suggested any other arcane spell-casting class except for magician as a favoured class, however, was intentional: I thing that culturally alone, an elf would never become a magician!

Furthermore, an interesting counter to your point is that magic learned by bards and sorcerers cannot by forgotten! :P

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Dec 1 2003, 03:55 PM
Bot your point... The reason I suggested any other arcane spell-casting class except for magician as a favoured class, however, was intentional: I thing that culturally alone, an elf would never become a magician!

Furthermore, an interesting counter to your point is that magic learned by bards and sorcerers cannot by forgotten! :P

Actually in 3.5 bards ans sorcerers can 'forget' magic they have learned. A bard at 5th level and every 3rd level following (8th, 11th, etc.) and a sorcerer at 4th and every even level following can substitute a previously learned spell with a 'new' one of the same level.

In 2nd ed only humans and goblins could be magicians, but in reality there is no reason that an elf wouldn't be a magician. Magicians favor divination and illusions magics, both of which are very much on the elven 'like' list. IMO any one who could be a wizard would be a wizard instead of a magician, but this is in reality meta-game logic and not an in-game culturally backed opinion. There is nothing really in the elven cultural traits that would indicate they would not choose magician as a class. If you look at it the magician's magic focuses on things that are very applicable to entertainment which is something that is very appropriate to the elven culture.

[Osprey]

In 2nd ed only humans and goblins could be magicians, but in reality there is no reason that an elf wouldn't be a magician. Magicians favor divination and illusions magics, both of which are very much on the elven 'like' list. IMO any one who could be a wizard would be a wizard instead of a magician, but this is in reality meta-game logic and not an in-game culturally backed opinion. There is nothing really in the elven cultural traits that would indicate they would not choose magician as a class. If you look at it the magician's magic focuses on things that are very applicable to entertainment which is something that is very appropriate to the elven culture.

Actually, there could be a very good in-game reason for this: magicians might have been a specifically human offshoot of the elven wizards, hence it gaining the name of "the lesser path." Elves might consider it a petty path fit for charlatans and those who don't understand or cannot grasp true magic. If you throw in cultural arrogance you might have a very good reason why elves wouldn't bother with the magician's path - it's for humans who can't use true magic!

That's one way to go, anyways. If an elf were to follow any path of that sort (especially if we're talking entertainment), it would almost certainly be as a bard.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Osprey@Dec 2 2003, 08:47 AM

Actually, there could be a very good in-game reason for this: magicians might have been a specifically human offshoot of the elven wizards, hence it gaining the name of "the lesser path." Elves might consider it a petty path fit for charlatans and those who don't understand or cannot grasp true magic. If you throw in cultural arrogance you might have a very good reason why elves wouldn't bother with the magician's path - it's for humans who can't use true magic!

That's one way to go, anyways. If an elf were to follow any path of that sort (especially if we're talking entertainment), it would almost certainly be as a bard.

True, but then there is the connection between Illusion (seeming) and the shadow world and the elves connection with it. It seems to me that since Illusion is one of the elves' favored schools (from BoM) and that wizards were forbidden from specializing in Illusion then it is much more contrary to say that they can't (or wouldn't) be magicians.

I agree that most would not be magicians, but again this is from a meta-gaming perspective.

In 3/3.5 while bards have a pretty good focus of spells that include Illusion and Enchantment (the 2 favored schools of elves), they do not have all of the arcane Illusion spells on their list.

So basically it seems to me to be pretty arbitrary to exclude any arcane casting class from the elves.

The obvious reason that 2nd ed excluded the magician class from all races except humans (and goblins via the monster cards) was because in 2nd the only races that could be wizards at all were humans, elves, half-elves and gnomes (only illusionists). The logic could be seen that in the 'why be a magician when you can be a wizard' (again meta-gaming view point) standpoint since in order to be a wizard a character had to be either blooded or have elven blood.

[RaspK_FOG]

My point concerning the cultural idiosyncracy was exactly that: the idea that elves would honestly thing too lightly, if not even disgustedly, of magicians, finding they have perverted their techne (TEH-hnee, greek word; means both "art" and "crafts"). In any case, you could always be right, and I don't feel the magician should be left, out, but instead should be made equal, even though it would be easier to incorporate as an NPC class (something I am totally against of&#33.

As for forgetting, I would disagree; it is more like giving away, letting things slip out of your grasp, while forgetting is more like not noticing them do so...

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Dec 3 2003, 10:24 PM

As for forgetting, I would disagree; it is more like giving away, letting things slip out of your grasp, while forgetting is more like not noticing them do so...

I think it can only be considered forgetting. A bard or sorcerer who 'replaces' a known spell with a 'new' one can no longer scribe the 'fogotten spell' since it is no longer on his list of 'known' spells. If it is taken in any other way then it really bypasses the restriction.

But overall I think we are in agreement. Whether or not it is forgotten or not is a matter of interpretation - mechanics wise it is no longer on the caster's known spell list so it functions the same as if he had never known it in the first place.

[Osprey]

With elves, I was talking about forgetting in a different way which is not reflected in the mechanics but was talked about in other discussions here in the forums. That is, forgetting meaning actual loss of spells and even character levels rather than the "you never lose levels except through negative energy drain" mechanic. A different mechanical system would need to be introduced to reflect that kind of forgetfulness, the kind immortals might be prone to.

[Osprey]

True, but then there is the connection between Illusion (seeming) and the shadow world and the elves connection with it. It seems to me that since Illusion is one of the elves' favored schools (from BoM) and that wizards were forbidden from specializing in Illusion then it is much more contrary to say that they can't (or wouldn't) be magicians.

I agree that most would not be magicians, but again this is from a meta-gaming perspective.

In 3/3.5 while bards have a pretty good focus of spells that include Illusion and Enchantment (the 2 favored schools of elves), they do not have all of the arcane Illusion spells on their list.

So basically it seems to me to be pretty arbitrary to exclude any arcane casting class from the elves.

The obvious reason that 2nd ed excluded the magician class from all races except humans (and goblins via the monster cards) was because in 2nd the only races that could be wizards at all were humans, elves, half-elves and gnomes (only illusionists). The logic could be seen that in the 'why be a magician when you can be a wizard' (again meta-gaming view point) standpoint since in order to be a wizard a character had to be either blooded or have elven blood.

I think my point about elves considering the magician a lesser path, and it being a distinctly human invention isn't a meta-gaming viewpoint at all, it's a setting-based one. Your point about elves not being able to specialize in illusion magic is, on the other hand, a rather mechanics-driven reason for why elves would be magicians. I'd much prefer to lift the prohibition on wizards being allowed to specialize in illusion and enchantment.

Even better, a lot of problems might be solved if sorcerers and bards could be specialists, not just wizards - giving them one extra spell per day in their chosen specialty, or knowing one extra spell per level in their specialist field in exchange for being prohibited from other schools - this seems pretty reasonable to me, I just think the 3e creators were scared of sorcerers being too powerful. But I think instead sorcerers got shafted, and the wizard is a mechanically superior class in almost every way except for the sorcerer's ability to be a spell-slinging machine gun.

If I had my way, sorcerers would have a few less spells per day and learn a slightly wider selection of spells per level and thus be more interesting to play. I hate them as PC&#39;s because they&#39;re so darned limited - here&#39;s your very limited choice of spells, but lucky you&#33; You can cast the same few spells over and over&#33; Hurrah&#33; <_< I&#39;m not very impressed - the concept of sorcerers are great, but their lack of flexibility in spells and skills forces them to be rather one-dimensional characters.

The other thing that could be done to make sorcerers more interesting is to give them some Charisma-based class skills, such as Diplomacy and Bluff. Then at least they can be effective social characters and use that CHA ability to good effect, and not be so reliant on those few spells and otherwise sit around twiddling their thumbs and wait for the next situation where their spells might be useful. Pretty boring character class, IMO.

[destowe]

Exactly. I believe in 3.5 SRD sorcerers can now have Diplomacy as a class skill.

This is a home rule but worked very well for sorcerers.

Every time a sorcerer gained a new spell level, he could &#39;upgrade&#39; one spell and replace the lower. If he did not do so at that level, he could not do it later.

Example: A sorcerer knows Summon Monster I. Does not matter if learned at 1st or 3rd sorcerer level.

At 4th level could &#39;upgrade&#39; to Summon Monster II, and change Summon Monster I with something else.

If he waited unitil 5th level to try and &#39;upgrade&#39; it did not work.

Perhaps to limit this make the replacement spell still be in the same school. And make sorcerers only pick one chain at first level. The enduce element chain is logical. A few more would have to be developed.

This makes more of a specialist sorcerer. Maybe a requirement of Spell Focus (X) at 1st level.

Or not.