Chapter 5 Revision

[Raesene Andu]

I've just started work on writing the Domain Rules for the upcoming revised edition of the BRSC and would like to call on everyone who has has something they would particularly like to see changed or added to step forward now and let me know now so I can consider your ideas for the revision.

Many good ideas have already been put forward by the BR community and these will lead to many changes, either to correct errors, clarify certain rules, or to add new rules. Some additional ideas I am working with at the moment include...

Lieutenants: Your lieutenants will now give you a bonus of 1 character or court action per action round... OR... if your regent is busy elsewhere (say an adventure), your lieutenant may temporily rule in your place and even perform a domain action for you. This will allow GB poor regents to still perform at least 1 court action without maintaining a huge and expensive court (useful for wizard who have little income).

Courts: You may no longer use your regent's skills and feats to influence court actions, only domain actions, although you may spend RP. As an optional rule I'll be introducing rules to allow the hiring of advisors. When conducting court actions you may designate one of your advisors to handle the action and use his/her skills. This would allow a low-level regent with few domain related skills to hire a skilled administration to improve the success chance of his rule holding court actions, or hire a general to lead his armies to victory. Advisors will have a maintenance cost (something for those regents with lots of gold to spend it on).

Research of Realm Spells: Although this is something more for chapter 7, I'll be adjusting the research times for realm spells to...
Level 1-3: 1 month
Level 4-6: 2 months
Level 7-9: 3 months (1 domain turn).
Research will still be subject to roll for success, but will be a little quicker now.
(After playing a wizard in a pbem, I realised that this is one rule that really needs to be changed. I'll also be clarifying the ley line rules, and adding to them a little.)

Spy Networks: Will become a seperate domain action. The role of a spy network will be expanded somewhat, allowing you to recruit spies within a enemy regent's court that pass on a continuous stream of information, such as tracking the movement of enemy troops. Each deployed spy would have a maintenance cost. (This is something I just starting thinking about today, so the final rules are still a way off)

Other Rules: I'm also considering more new rules, but I'll talk about them in the future. I don't want to make the rules too cumbersome, but at the same time, I do want to make them easier to read, and more complete than the draft version.


The revised domain rules will be released in draft form before the rest of the BRSC to allow comments and checking. In fact, I think it would be a good idea to do this with each chapter, to allow input from the BR community on the what we are working on.

[Osprey]

Lieutenants: Your lieutenants will now give you a bonus of 1 character or court action per action round... OR... if your regent is busy elsewhere (say an adventure), your lieutenant may temporily rule in your place and even perform a domain action for you. This will allow GB poor regents to still perform at least 1 court action without maintaining a huge and expensive court (useful for wizard who have little income).

Hmm, I'm not sure I like the idea of Lts. being cheap. In my games, I always ran it that the only Lts. who don't require maintenance are the extremely loyal ones gained through the Leadership feat. Which then requires any regent with this feat to decide between a military cohort or a loyal and able Lt. Additional Lts. may be recruited and confirmed through the Ceremony action, but these generally have a maintenance of at least 1 GB per season (possibly more at higher levels).

Courts: You may no longer use your regent's skills and feats to influence court actions, only domain actions, although you may spend RP. As an optional rule I'll be introducing rules to allow the hiring of advisors. When conducting court actions you may designate one of your advisors to handle the action and use his/her skills. This would allow a low-level regent with few domain related skills to hire a skilled administration to improve the success chance of his rule holding court actions, or hire a general to lead his armies to victory. Advisors will have a maintenance cost (something for those regents with lots of gold to spend it on).

I would add that the effects of a Court's reputation modifier on domain actions needs to be clarified. Does this replace a regent's or Lt's skill synergy bonus, or is it strictly limited to Diplomacy actions? I would prefer to see it expanded to include all Domain actions, given the tremendous expense of maintaining a high-level court. Why wouldn't a court represent administrators, beauracrats, courtiers, and advisors? I think special advisors, those who stand above the typical court employee, are suitably represented by Lieutenants, although any NPC advisor, etc. need not be a designated Lt. with the powers to rule in the regent's stead.

Research of Realm Spells: Although this is something more for chapter 7, I'll be adjusting the research times for realm spells to...
Level 1-3: 1 month
Level 4-6: 2 months
Level 7-9: 3 months (1 domain turn).
Research will still be subject to roll for success, but will be a little quicker now.

Boy, am I glad for this change! You're right, this was necessary to put source regents back in the competitive game.

I've been considering ley lines; one idea I've been using is that ley lines can't cross large bodies of water, especially seas and deep ocean, although source regents may still gather regeny from disparate island sources. The reasoning is a metaphysical one: oceans and seas aren't like land, they constantly mix and shift with currents, tides, and winds; if ley lines could remain stable within such an environment, then why wouldn't sea or ocean zones be capable of holding source potential? Now if we're talking about underwater races like tritons or merfolk, that might be a different story, but I'd tend to rule that landlubber mages just can't reach beneath the sea to access these potential sources - the shifting seas pose a formidable barrier.

Spy Networks: Will become a seperate domain action. The role of a spy network will be expanded somewhat, allowing you to recruit spies within a enemy regent's court that pass on a continuous stream of information, such as tracking the movement of enemy troops. Each deployed spy would have a maintenance cost.

I'd be carefuly about over-detailing this aspect, as it could very quickly become too cumbersome for a domain level of play. If a spy network remains a general net of spies and informants (hence giving the +2 Espionage synergy bonus, and allowing Espionage as court actions), it is still quite potent. Here as in the court, skilled lieutenants and hirelings can be used to represent the particularly useful spies coordinating Espionage actions in the province. I have several PC regents in my own game with Spymaster lieutenants who utilize spy networks to great advantage.

Concerning Espionage, I've been using a few additions that might be of interest to the revised BRCS. The major one is that Law holdings (in addition to Guild holdings, if any) may add their levels to any defensive Espionage actions, i.e. Counter-Espionage. This seems a natural role for any police force. This doesn't get out of hand so long as the DC's for these actions are sufficiently high (DC 20-30+ to uncover a spy network isn't unreasonable, given their secretive nature).

I also use a sliding scale of success for all Espionage actions. After establishing the base DC for the action, regents learn progressively more information the better their success on the action. If they succeed against the base DC, I give them basic information relating to the objective information, or a simple success in intrigue. For every 5 points by which their Espionage check beats the DC, I give them progressively more detailed levels of information or more complete and intricate successes in intrigue-type schemes.

Speaking of intrigue, this was an important part of the original BR game that seems to have gotten lost in the BRCS. I would love to see a revival of some detailed information on intrigue-oriented espionage written into the revised BRCS, including some specific examples that give players and DM's some ideas of what these actions might entail and how they would work, and what might be some typical DC's and effects of successful actions.

Some thoughts on Intrigue: Gather Information doesn't seem like the appropriate key skill here, though an info-gathering Espionage action might be a necessary precursor to a successful intrigue. The original BR had Intrigue as a seperate skill; whether this should be reintroduced or not is up to debate. In truth, intrigue actions could be a combination of any number of roguish skills: Bluff, Gather Info, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Intimidate, Sense Motive, Listen (eavesdropping), and Search (finding or planting evidence) might all be potentially usefula skills depending on the nature of the intrigue and the favored methods employed. Profession: Courtier and Kn: Nobilty would also be helpful in knowing how best to implement an intrigue at a court level.

[Eosin the Red]

Raesene Andu wrote:

Lieutenants: Your lieutenants will now give you a bonus of 1 character or court action per action round... OR... if your regent is busy elsewhere (say an adventure), your lieutenant may temporily rule in your place and even

perform a domain action for you. This will allow GB poor regents to still perform at least 1 court action without maintaining a huge and expensive court (useful for wizard who have little income).



I think this is a 100% step in the right direction but worry that it will be exploited by the big action realms like Avanil who are at max. Limiting it to Lieutenants (Any number) only giving one additional court action would help out. Additional Lts are still useful since they could be better in some areas. I think that Lts should be able to handle the “skilled part” of domain actions. That is: Darien Avan does not oversee the establishment of spy networks – he orders his Spymaster to do so. Basing the chack off of Avan himself is counterintuitive.



Courts: You may no longer use your regent's skills and feats to influence court actions, only domain actions, although you may spend RP. As an optional rule I'll be introducing rules to allow the hiring of advisors. When conducting court actions you may designate one of your advisors to handle the action and use his/her skills. This would allow a low-level regent with few domain related skills to hire a skilled administration to improve the success chance of his rule holding court actions, or hire a general to lead his armies to victory. Advisors will have a maintenance cost (something for those regents with lots of gold to spend it on).



I like this rule.



Research of Realm Spells: Although this is something more for chapter 7, I'll be adjusting the research times for realm spells to...Level 1-3: 1 monthLevel 4-6: 2 monthsLevel 7-9: 3 months (1 domain turn).Research will still be subject to roll for success, but will be a little quicker now. (After playing a wizard in a pbem, I realised that this is one rule that really needs to be changed. I'll also be clarifying the ley line rules, and adding to them a little.)



Thank you. This is another rule that I use.



Spy Networks:

Will become a seperate domain action. The role of a spy network will be expanded somewhat, allowing you to recruit spies within a enemy regent's court that pass on a continuous stream of information, such as tracking the

movement of enemy troops. Each deployed spy would have a maintenance cost. (This is something I just starting thinking about today, so the final rules are still a way off)



There are some issues with Spy Networks that I have run into. Some regents – especially when facing smaller court realms can bury the other player in 1 Domain Turn. Take Endier for instance: Let us say that Endier (Court of 6, Palace 4) had a problem with Tournen (Court of 5, no Palace) – In Turn 2.1 they decide to spend 3 court actions on Espionage to incite random events in Tournen, 2.2 they spend another 4 court actions, and finally deciding to nail the coffin shut they spend 5 court actions on 2.3 giving a total of 12 attempts at Random Events. Assuming that a 3rd of those actions succed they have ensured that Tournen, even if it responds with everything, cannot address all 4 random events within a turn resulting in the “aging” of a random event and all of the negatives that it brings. Endier also did not spend a single court action while tying up Tournen’s entire turn of (more than likely) Standard Actions. Heaven help Tournen if Endier spent some RP and went for Great Captian actions. (PS - making sense does not matter to some people who will cry "the rules do not prohibit me from it.")



I would rule (and do) that an spy network is capable of only a single action per month be it offensive or defensive. If a player asked I would allow for the creation of a second spy network within a country if they desired it but it would also incur a maint cost.



Other Rules:



These are allot of the biggies. As mentioned earlier, there needs to be some particular attention paid to wizards and the actions that are “realm-ible” and what constitues a court for them.



Randy~Eosin

[Osprey]

Spy Networks:
Will become a seperate domain action. The role of a spy network will be expanded somewhat, allowing you to recruit spies within a enemy regent's court that pass on a continuous stream of information, such as tracking the
movement of enemy troops. Each deployed spy would have a maintenance cost. (This is something I just starting thinking about today, so the final rules are still a way off)

There are some issues with Spy Networks that I have run into. Some regents – especially when facing smaller court realms can bury the other player in 1 Domain Turn. Take Endier for instance: Let us say that Endier (Court of 6, Palace 4) had a problem with Tournen (Court of 5, no Palace) – In Turn 2.1 they decide to spend 3 court actions on Espionage to incite random events in Tournen, 2.2 they spend another 4 court actions, and finally deciding to nail the coffin shut they spend 5 court actions on 2.3 giving a total of 12 attempts at Random Events. Assuming that a 3rd of those actions succed they have ensured that Tournen, even if it responds with everything, cannot address all 4 random events within a turn resulting in the “aging” of a random event and all of the negatives that it brings. Endier also did not spend a single court action while tying up Tournen’s entire turn of (more than likely) Standard Actions. Heaven help Tournen if Endier spent some RP and went for Great Captian actions. (PS - making sense does not matter to some people who will cry "the rules do not prohibit me from it.")

I would rule (and do) that an spy network is capable of only a single action per month be it offensive or defensive. If a player asked I would allow for the creation of a second spy network within a country if they desired it but it would also incur a maint cost.

There are some limiters on the use of Spy Networks. There is a normal limit of 1 per province for a given regent, and the fact that each spy network has a seasonal maintenance cost of 1 GB per season makes maintaining too many of them (5 min. in your example) ridiculously expensive (not to mention the cost of that court6/palace4 at 8 GB per season&#33. Throw in that each espionage action, though a court action, also has a base cost of 1 GB, and we're talking about some pretty hefty sums: typically more than Endier could afford unless it has some really extensive guilds and trade routes and few armies. Possible, yes, but not terribly likely IMO.

I've always assumed a limit of 1 Espionage action per province in a month as a given. A spy network only allows a court action Espionage action in its particular province. These are some pretty strict limitations as well.

My own experience is that a regent with too many spy networks ends up incurring huge expenses that are difficult to cover over the long term, but slow to build since it takes a Standard Action to create a spy network. Also, if you allow defending regents to use their law holding levels to oppose the check to establish the spy network, it can make it an even more difficult and costly procedure.

[Raesene Andu]

Some responses to points raised so far, and some new ideas/possibilities.

Lieutenants
The bonus court/character action provided by having a lieutenant will be limited to 1/round no matter how many lieutenants you have. Also, I will have optional rules dealing with lieutenant costs.

Courts
I think the reputation modifer should cover all court actions (i.e. those that are performed by your court, not your lieutenant). If this include part of a realm action (e.g. where a regent may be ruling up more than 1 holding at once) then this modifier is applied. This reputation modifier primarily effects actions within the regent's domain, where his courtiers are recognised, as well as diplomacy.
This section does need some work, and I think something that will be a lot of help will be combining all the rules on the same subject into on section, instead of spreading them across sections and even across chapters as was done in the playtest version. So all the info that deals with a court will be combined into one section headed Courts.

Ley Lines
I agree with the idea that ley lines can't cross large bodies of water (anything larger than a sea). This was something clarified for the original 2E rules, but passed over in the BRCS for some reason.

Spy Networks/Intrigues
One of the ideas behind adding a section on spy networks (as a domain assest) was to flesh out the section on espionage a little more, possibly providing some examples. I'm just thinking about how set everything out in the revised rules at the moment (mainly what goes where exactly).

I do like the sliding scale idea, will propably implement something like that. I've also assumed a limit of 1 espionage action per domain round, no matter if it comes from a court action or domain action.


New Ideas
This is a rule I've introduced for dwarven regents (well dwarven province regents anyway) in my pbem. Unless everyone thinks it is really good idea, it probably won't make it into the BRCS, but I'm just tossing it out there for you to discuss.

Acquire Resources [Racial (Dwarf); Lead; 5 RP]
As they mine the depths beneath the earth, the dwarven nations of Cerilia produce large quantities of gold, silver, gemstones, and other valuables. The dwarven craftsmen use these riches to create items of great beauty and value, but in times of need some of these riches may be claimed by a dwarven king and put to use for the good of the dwarven people.
As a standard domain action, a dwarven king can attempt to use his influence among the people to collect additional wealth for his treasury. The base DC for this action is 20 and the DC may be modified by the total of the regent’s holdings in the province where this action is being attempted. For example, if the Stonelord of Khurin-Azur, Tjorgrim Stonesoul attempts to acquire the resources of his people in his capital province, where he has a level 4 law holding and a level 3 guild holding, then the DC of this attempt of 13. No additional RP can be spent to improve the success chance of this action.
Before attempting this action the regent must decide how much of his regency he wishes to attempt to convert to gold. The minimum cost for this action is 5 RP and that will produce 1 GB worth of acquired resources if the action is successful. For every additional 5 RP the regent risks on this action he potentially gains an additional 1 GB worth of resources. For example, Tjorgrim Stonesoul wishes to attempt to acquire 5 GB worth of resources from his people to fund his armies. This will cost him 25 RP no matter the outcome. If he is successful then he gains the 5 GB, but if the people are not swayed by his requests then he loses all the RP spent on the attempt.
This action can only be used once per domain turn, and can only be conducted by dwarven regent who rules a province. Law, temple, guild, and source regents do not have access to this action. The population of the province must also be racially dwarven, so this action cannot be conducted in a province that has been captured from another race.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Raesene Andu@Oct 27 2003, 04:48 AM
Some responses to points raised so far, and some new ideas/possibilities.

Lieutenants
The bonus court/character action provided by having a lieutenant will be limited to 1/round no matter how many lieutenants you have. Also, I will have optional rules dealing with lieutenant costs.

Ian, you don't need to add any rules for costs of Lts. They are treated like cohorts and the DMG has 'guidelines' for how much to pay them. (see BRCS -pg 149) This is up to the PC and the DM for how to handle it. Any additions would, IMO, just be extraneous material.

[Osprey]

I do like the sliding scale idea, will propably implement something like that. I've also assumed a limit of 1 espionage action per domain round, no matter if it comes from a court action or domain action.

I think a limit of one espionage action per realm per round is a more reasonable limit...I don't see a good reason to forbid an espionage-focused regent from using his 3 spy networks in 3 different realms, if that's how he wants to spend his resources.

[teloft]

I would think of spy networks as something witch is rather expensive to create, but rahter chep to matain.

But i would like to see some chence of a
spy networks to give wrong infromation,
no information at all or go doble cross
if only mataind for a long time

with increasing chance of coruption the longer the
spyes are set on low matainace.

A spy on low matainance will probebly try to earn him
selfe a living by applying trade, or with other activetys
by simply laying low.

h34r:

[ConjurerDragon]

Raesene Andu schrieb:

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>

> Raesene Andu wrote:

> Some responses to points raised so far, and some new ideas/possibilities.

> Acquire Resources [Racial (Dwarf); Lead; 5 RP]

> As they mine the depths beneath the earth, the dwarven nations of Cerilia produce large quantities of gold, silver, gemstones, and other valuables. The dwarven craftsmen use these riches to create items of great beauty and value, but in times of need some of these riches may be claimed by a dwarven king and put to use for the good of the dwarven people.

> As a standard domain action, a dwarven king can attempt to use his influence among the people to collect additional wealth for his treasury. The base DC for this action is 20 and the DC may be modified by the total of the regent’s holdings in the province where this action is being attempted. For example, if the Stonelord of Khurin-Azur, Tjorgrim Stonesoul attempts to acquire the resources of his people in his capital province, where he has a level 4 law holding and a level 3 guild holding, then the DC of this attempt of 13. No additional RP can be spent to improve the success chance of this action.

> Before attempting this action the regent must decide how much of his regency he wishes to attempt to convert to gold. The minimum cost for this action is 5 RP and that will produce 1 GB worth of acquired resources if the action is successful. For every additional 5 RP the regent risks on this action he potentially gains an additional 1 GB worth of resources. For example, Tjorgrim Stonesoul wishes to attempt to acquire 5 GB worth of resources from his people to fund his armies. This will cost him 25 RP no matter the outcome. If he is successful then he gains the 5 GB, but if the people are not swayed by his requests then he loses all the RP spent on the attempt.

> This action can only be used once per domain turn, and can only be conducted by dwarven regent who rules a province. Law, temple, guild, and source regents do not have access to this action. The population of the province must also be racially dwarven, so this action cannot be conducted in a province that has been captured from another race.



Isn´t that a very long description for

something that 2E Birthright ruled so short,

just by allowing Dwarven Regents to use the

equivalent of the Alchemy spell to convert RP to GB?

bye

Micahel

[lordofallandnothing]

Acquire Resources [Racial (Dwarf); Lead; 5 RP]

i love this idea for it rings true to what dwarves are all about.they are great miners and they all pull together during a crisis that and they seem to always follow their leaders suggestions in the end(even if the y gripe about them now)