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Thread: Blood As Templet
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10-29-2003, 03:53 PM #21
I think bloodedness is obviously a template. I find the arguments for blood
as a class strained and artificial. I see none of the arguments presented
as even moderatly compelling. Starting at one just because its the first of
the ordinal numbers carrys about as much weight with me as insisting the
players sit in alphabetical order.
Since you want to define meta-game thinking so narrowly, fine. Let`s. Its
not meta-game thinking, its eleveating the mechanics to a central place in
the thinking of what character creation should look like. Rather than using
the system to create the character according to the demands of the
character, you are confining the character according to demands which are
entirely external to the game.
When I think of BR as a low level setting, what I take from that is the
notion that starting players are able to operate as rulers. They have their
blood abilities intact. They aren`t learned, they are innate.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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10-29-2003, 05:22 PM #22
At 09:26 AM 10/29/2003 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>I think bloodedness is obviously a template. I find the arguments for blood
>as a class strained and artificial. I see none of the arguments presented
>as even moderatly compelling. Starting at one just because its the first of
>the ordinal numbers carrys about as much weight with me as insisting the
>players sit in alphabetical order.
Well, it wasn`t a template before 3e came out, and there isn`t anything
particularly compelling about the template concept in regards to reflecting
bloodline that I can see. Templates aren`t any more apt a game mechanic
than several others that have been suggested. In fact, templates have been
broken down successfully into character classes, so if one has a template
with an ECL modifier one has the fundamental aspects of a character class,
especially in BR where there is also the original materials text about
gaining hit points.
Using such a system one can start at whatever ordinal one likes, so those
who want to play things out at the earliest point supported by the rules
can do so, while those who want to skip a few digits can do that too...
regardless of the seating arrangements of the players.
>Since you want to define meta-game thinking so narrowly, fine. Let`s. Its
>not meta-game thinking, its eleveating the mechanics to a central place in
>the thinking of what character creation should look like. Rather than using
>the system to create the character according to the demands of the
>character, you are confining the character according to demands which are
>entirely external to the game.
The confines to which your claiming such characters would be limited to
aren`t actually confines at all. Where you`re suggesting characters must
begin a certain point (where ever their ECL modifier lands them) a method
that breaks that ECL down a la Savage Species or something like it allows
those levels to be played out. The "confines" to which the character is
limited, therefore, is actual play. If someone playing a major bloodline
gets 2 levels of play out of the system then that`s all the better. Rather
than engage in play, applying a template with an ECL allows a player (or
DM) to simply skip those levels and all the requisite character development
and actual role-playing they represent. That`s hardly creating a character
according to demands external to the game. Rather, it`s playing a
character from the beginning, through the development, and into the
fruition of powers to which you are suggesting he should simply be gifted
sans an characterization, any reward system or even any play.
>When I think of BR as a low level setting, what I take from that is the
>notion that starting players are able to operate as rulers. They have their
>blood abilities intact. They aren`t learned, they are innate.
I see the setting as low level in a general, thematic sense, not just in
the access of low-level characters to the domain level. There are, of
course, exceptional BR characters, but being a high level character in BR
means reaching the double digits of character levels--a laughably low
number for PCs in other campaign settings. In keeping with that a
low-level (1+) option is a good idea to maintain what is a campaign theme.
Gary
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10-29-2003, 05:52 PM #23
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 10:34 AM
> Well, it wasn`t a template before 3e came out,
It was totally a template. You made a character normally, then just stuck
the bloodline on top of that. What was missing were the accoutrements of a
template which are common in 3e, like assinging an ECL. Perhaps you thing
bloodline had levels in 2e?
> In fact, templates have been broken down successfully into character
classes
This should be stunningly obvious. That effective level can be converted
into actual levels should surprise no one.
> Rather, it`s playing a character from the beginning, through the
> development, and into the fruition of powers to which you are
> suggesting he should simply be gifted sans an characterization,
> any reward system or even any play.
Bingo. Because that`s what blood powers are. They are innate gifts of the
divine, not earned rewards for experience. This, obviously, is where the
central disagreement lies.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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10-29-2003, 06:30 PM #24
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Originally posted by kgauck@Oct 29 2003, 12:52 PM
--
Bingo. Because that`s what blood powers are. They are innate gifts of the
divine, not earned rewards for experience. This, obviously, is where the
central disagreement lies.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
I think you are reading something into the scion class level proposals that isn't there. There is no tie into learning new blood abilities via the scion class systems proposed.
Gaining new blood abilities is strictly a function of the scion's blood score.
The scion class level (and the ECL'd templates from the BRCS) both determined the level of the blood abilities gained. The templates had the major template required to gain major blood abilities, the scion class system has 1st level of scion class, etc.
Gaining and losing levels is something that people are very much used to from the 2nd ed system while gaining and losing templates is rather new. It does function similarly but it is still a relatively new concept.Duane Eggert
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10-29-2003, 07:40 PM #25
----- Original Message -----
From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 12:30 PM
> I think you are reading something into the scion class level proposals
> that isn`t there. There is no tie into learning new blood abilities via
the
> scion class systems proposed.
I am responding to Gary`s comments to the contrary. The BRCS has nothing to
do with it. I don`t use it, Gary hasn`t refered to it. So, I`m not reading
anything into the BRCS, beacuse I`m not reading it at all. I`m reading the
posts on the list.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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10-30-2003, 01:57 AM #26
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i will keep playing it the way i have been and "maybe" make up a prestige class or two that will alllow a being a way to enhance his already existing blood abilities or of powering them up(maybe one pretige class with two alternate sets of benefits that you may only ever take one set of,ie you could not take the class twice to get both sets) that way i can just have my fighter be a ruler and my wizard be a source holder etc. without adding on any more classes that they have to take,never read the playtest rules so i dont even know if you already have it covered this way or not yet.i am going to read it tomorrow to see if it sparks any ideas for my game here at home.anyways on this discussion why dont we all do what we normally do...use what you want to modify what ya can and junk the rest? :lol:
Check this out From Thanatos Arch-Necromancer of undeath
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10-30-2003, 08:42 AM #27
At 11:22 AM 10/29/2003 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> > Well, it wasn`t a template before 3e came out,
>
>It was totally a template. You made a character normally, then just stuck
>the bloodline on top of that. What was missing were the accoutrements of a
>template which are common in 3e, like assinging an ECL. Perhaps you thing
>bloodline had levels in 2e?
That whole sentence read "Well, it wasn`t a template before 3e came out,
and there isn`t anything particularly compelling about the template concept
in regards to reflecting bloodline that I can see." Point being not that
the 2e function paralleled 3e`s templates (which is debatable--see below)
but that the 3e presentation of bloodline needn`t be a template any more
than it need be an ability score, a character class, etc.
In that context, the tainted, minor, major, great and true bloodline
strength values--which have no real functional use in the original 2e
bloodline mechanic other than to determine the dice rolled for bloodline
score--could very easily be described as the levels of bloodline in 2e. So
in a word, yes, I do think bloodline had levels in 2e. At least, they have
3e levels as much as they are a 3e template.
The truth of the matter, however, is that bloodline is broader than either
3e`s templates or character class game mechanics. It uses a different
criteria to "level up", it has an entirely different system of variable
powers, the system operates on both a domain and adventure level, there are
character class interactions, it determines access to the magic system, the
ability to control political units with a speed that is unrealistic by most
objective standards, and a whole slew of implications regarding to the path
to divinity; awn- and ersheghlien and all the accoutrement of
ascension. Templates alone are inadequate to accurately present the
concepts of bloodline. People have suggested using several other game
mechanics that have changed from 2e to 3e; skills, feats, ability scores in
addition to templates and character classes. Since it is the heart of the
setting (pun intended) it`s reasonable that it should encompass the whole
range of D20 mechanics including magic item creation, feats, skills, hero
points, etc. If such issues fit into 3e/3.5 mechanics then great, we
should use them. Where they don`t new ones should be used that convey as
nearly as possible the broad range of the concept--when they need to be
changed at all, that is. The bloodline score by itself should, I think,
remain the bloodline score, despite there being no 3e/3.5/D20 equivalent.
Other issues, however, should be converted more closely to 3e mechanics not
just to be in parity with the new rules but because as often as not they
convey the themes of bloodlines better than the original 2e rules did and
allow for a greater amount of character development. The ECL system is
just one of those items.
> > In fact, templates have been broken down successfully into character
> classes
>
>This should be stunningly obvious. That effective level can be converted
>into actual levels should surprise no one.
Well, there wasn`t a glimmer of the idea before Savage Species came out
that I ever recall reading, so the revelation would surprise anyone not
familiar with that book. Hindsight now fully in place, however, what
should really be obvious is not just that templates can be broken up into
character classes, but that such a method offers greater opportunities for
role-playing and character development than does simply assigning a +1 to
+3 ECL from a template does. Where it`s been suggested that an approach
that allows characters to start at 1st level will somehow "confining the
character according to demands which are entirely external to the game" in
reality the exact opposite is true.
> > Rather, it`s playing a character from the beginning, through the
> > development, and into the fruition of powers to which you are
> > suggesting he should simply be gifted sans an characterization,
> > any reward system or even any play.
>
>Bingo. Because that`s what blood powers are. They are innate gifts of the
>divine, not earned rewards for experience. This, obviously, is where the
>central disagreement lies.
Well, that might be what you`d like them to be, but that`s not necessarily
what they are. There are other interpretations of what blood powers are,
how and when they manifest, and if we can have rules to play them out then
it is reasonable to explore the options. Aside from that "innate" does not
mean unearned, or that there is no process involved. In a system that has
so many functions for accounting for character power it`s a good idea to
address the issue mechanically.
Most importantly, it isn`t an either/or proposition. They can still be
innate (and "unearned") gifts of the gods because by simply assigning the
template/ECL/level if the DM chooses that method. If one wants to
role-play the discovery of blood abilities and have players explore the
process by which they are gained then they can do that too.
Gary
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10-30-2003, 09:16 AM #28
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 1:09 AM
> the tainted, minor, major, great and true bloodline strength values
> i-which have no real functional use in the original 2e bloodline
It was possible to divine this information, and I rather think it would be
known by the geneologists and heralds of the region, so that its primary
focus was in role play. Irregardless of bloodstrength score, which I regard
as a game mechanic, the named strength a regarded mostly as a source of
prestige and honor among families. Among equal titles, the greater rank of
blood would take precidence. For non-ruling scions, the named rank as more
routine use than the score.
> Well, there wasn`t a glimmer of the idea before Savage Species came out
> that I ever recall reading, so the revelation would surprise anyone not
> familiar with that book. Hindsight now fully in place, however, what
> should really be obvious is not just that templates can be broken up into
> character classes, but that such a method offers greater opportunities for
> role-playing and character development than does simply assigning a +1 to
> +3 ECL from a template does.
In my BRCS treatment of character creation, which a few people have seen, I
broke up the goblin template this way. I had some off-list discussion with
John Machin on the utility of a goblin class based on the templates of the
three relevant creatures. My notion at the time was that if you started off
as a goblin, much like the backround class I already employ, why not advance
as a goblin as well?
> Where it`s been suggested that an approach that allows characters to
> start at 1st level will somehow "confining the character according to
> demands which are entirely external to the game" in reality the exact
> opposite is true.
Well I`d agree that its true, but I also find it undesirable. Since I
neither desire the strangely brittle 1st level character, and I prefer the
notion of the template`s inherentness, its clear why I would find a system
that expects me to accept the drawbacks without the benefits of the template
unappealing.
> Well, that might be what you`d like them to be, but that`s not necessarily
> what they are. There are other interpretations of what blood powers are,
> how and when they manifest, and if we can have rules to play them out then
> it is reasonable to explore the options.
I didn`t say don`t explore them, and I rather think my criticism encourages
that exploration. Since the last time I weighed in on this question was
April/May of 2002, I don`t think its too much of a burden.
> Aside from that "innate" does not mean unearned, or that there is no
> process involved. In a system that has so many functions for accounting
> for character power it`s a good idea to address the issue mechanically.
I rather find this notion contrary to the very idea of innate.
> Most importantly, it isn`t an either/or proposition. They can still be
> innate (and "unearned") gifts of the gods because by simply assigning the
> template/ECL/level if the DM chooses that method. If one wants to
> role-play the discovery of blood abilities and have players explore the
> process by which they are gained then they can do that too.
Well it is an either/or for specific campaigns that don`t attempt hybrid
systems. But for the community, yes, viva la difference.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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10-31-2003, 12:49 PM #29
Replying to Blood As Templet
______________________________________
from the Brcs
Blooded scion template
"Blooded Scion" is a template that can be added to any aberration,
animal, beast, dragon, giant, humanoid, magical beast,
monstrous humanoid, or shapechanger. The creature uses its
normal statistics, unless noted otherwise below. This template
has three variations, corresponding to the three possible bloodline
strengths of the scion: Minor, Major, or Great.
______________________________________
when I think of the blood power, I think
higlander/Starwars
the Higlander
in order to gain a new Blood abilitie of the divine blood you have to be exposed to blood alowing thet Blood abilitie.
or
kill somone with the Blood abilitie you want.
or have a cleric transfear a potion of somonse Blood abilities into your system, then fule it with your Rp.
or have a god transfear a potion of his own power / Blood abilitie into your system,
and perhaps alow him to fully fule it as well.
Im perhaps thinking somehting new here, I dont realy know.
So you have a blood potential, thet is what Blood abilities you can manifest in your person.
then you have bloodpoints, thet migth works as abilityscore.
see 'Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells'
But I think it would be strange.
I would rather like to think of the blood score as the leadership score of the leadership Blood abilitie.
______________________________________
This is how I would like to think of begin blooded.
Here are some rules on how to make your personal Blood templet.
this templet alows some Blood abilities, depending on f.x. your family
Now here is my family, and the usualy have theees blood Blood abilities
<Blood abilitie 1> <Blood abilitie 2> <Blood abilitie 3>, and some are even known to have thees Blood abilities <Blood abilitie4> <Blood abilitie5> ...
I have some of thees Blood abilities activaided bu using blood points to activaid them.
the bloodpoint is permanetly bound to the Blood abilitie.
and my total bloodscore is the total of all my bloodpoints storde in my Blood abilities.
each Blood abilitie has a Rp storage as well.
Rp are like powersells for the Blood abilities, thet dount run out. You usualy dont spend Rp when using your Blood abilities
the Blood abilitie migth thow require some number of Rp to function, usualy the same amount as bloodpoints in thet Blood abilitie.
loosing thees Rp points will make your Blood abilitie unusable. so you can become vonurable.
as a standard evryone usualy has all there blood abilitys fuled fully with Rp.
the Blood abilitie can also have exsta stogae for Rp.
the total extra storage for Rp is your max reserv.
and I intruduce a new Blood abilitie, extra reserv.
alowing you to imbue your selfe with the trust of the land and its people, alowing you to efectively colect
Rp and store it.
______________________________________
old
Strength of blood
Tainted : lv 0
Minor : lv 1
Major : lv 2
Great : lv 3
True : lv 4
Divine : lv 5
Omnipotetial : lv 6 (your porbebly one of thows thet maid the prison named ravenloft)
24 : 1-1
28 : 1-1 2-1
36 : 1-1 2-1 3-1
40 : 1-2 2-1 3-1
44 : 1-2 2-2 3-1
52 : 1-2 2-2 3-2
56 : 1-3 2-2 3-2
...
______________________________________
Im itrudusing the 0 lv abilitys and the 4th lv abilitys
0 lv is mostly only about storing Rp, and the bloodmark.
while 4th lv is granting divine spells of low level, and some wery powerfull things.
like 'create portfolio'
-begin able to have adept clerics and war clerics.
now the 5th level is for the graiter gods. thows thet no longer need much
holdings in terms of regents, become a force rather then begin in form.
-ability to take form to figth in person.
-one of thees abilitys would be to create the godly dimenchion for the afterlife.
-begin able to have paladins
-begin able to have normal clerics
______________________________________
Bloodranks are bloodpoints permanetly conected to this ability.
new
<Blood abilitie name> <Blood Ranks> <Rp damage> <DC>
<BloodRanks> <power awailabe>
<BloodRanks> <power awailabe>
<BloodRanks> <power awailabe>
...
______________________________________
awailable example powers
extra storing of RP
Longer life
ability to cast spells
Other <Su> or <Sp> abilitys
perhaps even some <Ex> abilitys like the paladins have. !!
______________________________________
without extra storing of Rp you can only stor as much Rp as your bloodscore is.
______________________________________
DC of blood ability is 10 + the level of the ability (Minor 1) + your blood ab bonus (+2) = 13
______________________________________
what are your thougths here?
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10-31-2003, 09:21 PM #30
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Originally posted by teloft@Oct 31 2003, 07:49 AM
Replying to Blood As Templet
______________________________________
from the Brcs
Blooded scion template
"Blooded Scion" is a template that can be added to any aberration,
animal, beast, dragon, giant, humanoid, magical beast,
monstrous humanoid, or shapechanger. The creature uses its
normal statistics, unless noted otherwise below. This template
has three variations, corresponding to the three possible bloodline
strengths of the scion: Minor, Major, or Great.
______________________________________
Im perhaps thinking somehting new here, I dont realy know.
So you have a blood potential, thet is what Blood abilities you can manifest in your person.
then you have bloodpoints, thet migth works as abilityscore.
see 'Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells'
But I think it would be strange.
I would rather like to think of the blood score as the leadership score of the leadership Blood abilitie.
______________________________________
This is how I would like to think of begin blooded.
Here are some rules on how to make your personal Blood templet.
this templet alows some Blood abilities, depending on f.x. your family
Now here is my family, and the usualy have theees blood Blood abilities
<Blood abilitie 1> <Blood abilitie 2> <Blood abilitie 3>, and some are even known to have thees Blood abilities <Blood abilitie4> <Blood abilitie5> ...
I have some of thees Blood abilities activaided bu using blood points to activaid them.
the bloodpoint is permanetly bound to the Blood abilitie.
and my total bloodscore is the total of all my bloodpoints storde in my Blood abilities.
each Blood abilitie has a Rp storage as well.
Rp are like powersells for the Blood abilities, thet dount run out. You usualy dont spend Rp when using your Blood abilities
the Blood abilitie migth thow require some number of Rp to function, usualy the same amount as bloodpoints in thet Blood abilitie.
loosing thees Rp points will make your Blood abilitie unusable. so you can become vonurable.
as a standard evryone usualy has all there blood abilitys fuled fully with Rp.
the Blood abilitie can also have exsta stogae for Rp.
the total extra storage for Rp is your max reserv.
and I intruduce a new Blood abilitie, extra reserv.
alowing you to imbue your selfe with the trust of the land and its people, alowing you to efectively colect
Rp and store it.
______________________________________
old
Strength of blood
Tainted : lv 0
Minor : lv 1
Major : lv 2
Great : lv 3
True : lv 4
Divine : lv 5
Omnipotetial : lv 6 (your porbebly one of thows thet maid the prison named ravenloft)
24 : 1-1
28 : 1-1 2-1
36 : 1-1 2-1 3-1
40 : 1-2 2-1 3-1
44 : 1-2 2-2 3-1
52 : 1-2 2-2 3-2
56 : 1-3 2-2 3-2
...
______________________________________
Im itrudusing the 0 lv abilitys and the 4th lv abilitys
0 lv is mostly only about storing Rp, and the bloodmark.
while 4th lv is granting divine spells of low level, and some wery powerfull things.
like 'create portfolio'
-begin able to have adept clerics and war clerics.
now the 5th level is for the graiter gods. thows thet no longer need much
holdings in terms of regents, become a force rather then begin in form.
-ability to take form to figth in person.
-one of thees abilitys would be to create the godly dimenchion for the afterlife.
-begin able to have paladins
-begin able to have normal clerics
______________________________________
Bloodranks are bloodpoints permanetly conected to this ability.
new
<Blood abilitie name> <Blood Ranks> <Rp damage> <DC>
<BloodRanks> <power awailabe>
<BloodRanks> <power awailabe>
<BloodRanks> <power awailabe>
...
______________________________________
awailable example powers
extra storing of RP
Longer life
ability to cast spells
Other <Su> or <Sp> abilitys
perhaps even some <Ex> abilitys like the paladins have. !!
______________________________________
without extra storing of Rp you can only stor as much Rp as your bloodscore is.
______________________________________
DC of blood ability is 10 + the level of the ability (Minor 1) + your blood ab bonus (+2) = 13
______________________________________
what are your thougths here?Duane Eggert
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