Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 32
  1. #21
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Springfield Mo
    Posts
    3,562
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0
    I think bloodedness is obviously a template. I find the arguments for blood

    as a class strained and artificial. I see none of the arguments presented

    as even moderatly compelling. Starting at one just because its the first of

    the ordinal numbers carrys about as much weight with me as insisting the

    players sit in alphabetical order.



    Since you want to define meta-game thinking so narrowly, fine. Let`s. Its

    not meta-game thinking, its eleveating the mechanics to a central place in

    the thinking of what character creation should look like. Rather than using

    the system to create the character according to the demands of the

    character, you are confining the character according to demands which are

    entirely external to the game.



    When I think of BR as a low level setting, what I take from that is the

    notion that starting players are able to operate as rulers. They have their

    blood abilities intact. They aren`t learned, they are innate.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  2. #22
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    2,165
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0
    At 09:26 AM 10/29/2003 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:



    >I think bloodedness is obviously a template. I find the arguments for blood

    >as a class strained and artificial. I see none of the arguments presented

    >as even moderatly compelling. Starting at one just because its the first of

    >the ordinal numbers carrys about as much weight with me as insisting the

    >players sit in alphabetical order.



    Well, it wasn`t a template before 3e came out, and there isn`t anything

    particularly compelling about the template concept in regards to reflecting

    bloodline that I can see. Templates aren`t any more apt a game mechanic

    than several others that have been suggested. In fact, templates have been

    broken down successfully into character classes, so if one has a template

    with an ECL modifier one has the fundamental aspects of a character class,

    especially in BR where there is also the original materials text about

    gaining hit points.



    Using such a system one can start at whatever ordinal one likes, so those

    who want to play things out at the earliest point supported by the rules

    can do so, while those who want to skip a few digits can do that too...

    regardless of the seating arrangements of the players.



    >Since you want to define meta-game thinking so narrowly, fine. Let`s. Its

    >not meta-game thinking, its eleveating the mechanics to a central place in

    >the thinking of what character creation should look like. Rather than using

    >the system to create the character according to the demands of the

    >character, you are confining the character according to demands which are

    >entirely external to the game.



    The confines to which your claiming such characters would be limited to

    aren`t actually confines at all. Where you`re suggesting characters must

    begin a certain point (where ever their ECL modifier lands them) a method

    that breaks that ECL down a la Savage Species or something like it allows

    those levels to be played out. The "confines" to which the character is

    limited, therefore, is actual play. If someone playing a major bloodline

    gets 2 levels of play out of the system then that`s all the better. Rather

    than engage in play, applying a template with an ECL allows a player (or

    DM) to simply skip those levels and all the requisite character development

    and actual role-playing they represent. That`s hardly creating a character

    according to demands external to the game. Rather, it`s playing a

    character from the beginning, through the development, and into the

    fruition of powers to which you are suggesting he should simply be gifted

    sans an characterization, any reward system or even any play.



    >When I think of BR as a low level setting, what I take from that is the

    >notion that starting players are able to operate as rulers. They have their

    >blood abilities intact. They aren`t learned, they are innate.



    I see the setting as low level in a general, thematic sense, not just in

    the access of low-level characters to the domain level. There are, of

    course, exceptional BR characters, but being a high level character in BR

    means reaching the double digits of character levels--a laughably low

    number for PCs in other campaign settings. In keeping with that a

    low-level (1+) option is a good idea to maintain what is a campaign theme.



    Gary

  3. #23
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Springfield Mo
    Posts
    3,562
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0
    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>

    Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 10:34 AM





    > Well, it wasn`t a template before 3e came out,



    It was totally a template. You made a character normally, then just stuck

    the bloodline on top of that. What was missing were the accoutrements of a

    template which are common in 3e, like assinging an ECL. Perhaps you thing

    bloodline had levels in 2e?



    > In fact, templates have been broken down successfully into character

    classes



    This should be stunningly obvious. That effective level can be converted

    into actual levels should surprise no one.



    > Rather, it`s playing a character from the beginning, through the

    > development, and into the fruition of powers to which you are

    > suggesting he should simply be gifted sans an characterization,

    > any reward system or even any play.



    Bingo. Because that`s what blood powers are. They are innate gifts of the

    divine, not earned rewards for experience. This, obviously, is where the

    central disagreement lies.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  4. #24
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Virginia Beach, Virginia
    Posts
    3,945
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Originally posted by kgauck@Oct 29 2003, 12:52 PM
    --
    Bingo. Because that`s what blood powers are. They are innate gifts of the

    divine, not earned rewards for experience. This, obviously, is where the

    central disagreement lies.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

    Kenneth,
    I think you are reading something into the scion class level proposals that isn&#39;t there. There is no tie into learning new blood abilities via the scion class systems proposed.

    Gaining new blood abilities is strictly a function of the scion&#39;s blood score.

    The scion class level (and the ECL&#39;d templates from the BRCS) both determined the level of the blood abilities gained. The templates had the major template required to gain major blood abilities, the scion class system has 1st level of scion class, etc.

    Gaining and losing levels is something that people are very much used to from the 2nd ed system while gaining and losing templates is rather new. It does function similarly but it is still a relatively new concept.
    Duane Eggert

  5. #25
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Springfield Mo
    Posts
    3,562
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0
    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 12:30 PM





    > I think you are reading something into the scion class level proposals

    > that isn`t there. There is no tie into learning new blood abilities via

    the

    > scion class systems proposed.



    I am responding to Gary`s comments to the contrary. The BRCS has nothing to

    do with it. I don`t use it, Gary hasn`t refered to it. So, I`m not reading

    anything into the BRCS, beacuse I`m not reading it at all. I`m reading the

    posts on the list.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  6. #26
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    vermont
    Posts
    37
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    i will keep playing it the way i have been and "maybe" make up a prestige class or two that will alllow a being a way to enhance his already existing blood abilities or of powering them up(maybe one pretige class with two alternate sets of benefits that you may only ever take one set of,ie you could not take the class twice to get both sets) that way i can just have my fighter be a ruler and my wizard be a source holder etc. without adding on any more classes that they have to take,never read the playtest rules so i dont even know if you already have it covered this way or not yet.i am going to read it tomorrow to see if it sparks any ideas for my game here at home.anyways on this discussion why dont we all do what we normally do...use what you want to modify what ya can and junk the rest? :lol:
    Check this out From Thanatos Arch-Necromancer of undeath

  7. #27
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    2,165
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0
    At 11:22 AM 10/29/2003 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:



    > > Well, it wasn`t a template before 3e came out,

    >

    >It was totally a template. You made a character normally, then just stuck

    >the bloodline on top of that. What was missing were the accoutrements of a

    >template which are common in 3e, like assinging an ECL. Perhaps you thing

    >bloodline had levels in 2e?



    That whole sentence read "Well, it wasn`t a template before 3e came out,

    and there isn`t anything particularly compelling about the template concept

    in regards to reflecting bloodline that I can see." Point being not that

    the 2e function paralleled 3e`s templates (which is debatable--see below)

    but that the 3e presentation of bloodline needn`t be a template any more

    than it need be an ability score, a character class, etc.



    In that context, the tainted, minor, major, great and true bloodline

    strength values--which have no real functional use in the original 2e

    bloodline mechanic other than to determine the dice rolled for bloodline

    score--could very easily be described as the levels of bloodline in 2e. So

    in a word, yes, I do think bloodline had levels in 2e. At least, they have

    3e levels as much as they are a 3e template.



    The truth of the matter, however, is that bloodline is broader than either

    3e`s templates or character class game mechanics. It uses a different

    criteria to "level up", it has an entirely different system of variable

    powers, the system operates on both a domain and adventure level, there are

    character class interactions, it determines access to the magic system, the

    ability to control political units with a speed that is unrealistic by most

    objective standards, and a whole slew of implications regarding to the path

    to divinity; awn- and ersheghlien and all the accoutrement of

    ascension. Templates alone are inadequate to accurately present the

    concepts of bloodline. People have suggested using several other game

    mechanics that have changed from 2e to 3e; skills, feats, ability scores in

    addition to templates and character classes. Since it is the heart of the

    setting (pun intended) it`s reasonable that it should encompass the whole

    range of D20 mechanics including magic item creation, feats, skills, hero

    points, etc. If such issues fit into 3e/3.5 mechanics then great, we

    should use them. Where they don`t new ones should be used that convey as

    nearly as possible the broad range of the concept--when they need to be

    changed at all, that is. The bloodline score by itself should, I think,

    remain the bloodline score, despite there being no 3e/3.5/D20 equivalent.

    Other issues, however, should be converted more closely to 3e mechanics not

    just to be in parity with the new rules but because as often as not they

    convey the themes of bloodlines better than the original 2e rules did and

    allow for a greater amount of character development. The ECL system is

    just one of those items.



    > > In fact, templates have been broken down successfully into character

    > classes

    >

    >This should be stunningly obvious. That effective level can be converted

    >into actual levels should surprise no one.



    Well, there wasn`t a glimmer of the idea before Savage Species came out

    that I ever recall reading, so the revelation would surprise anyone not

    familiar with that book. Hindsight now fully in place, however, what

    should really be obvious is not just that templates can be broken up into

    character classes, but that such a method offers greater opportunities for

    role-playing and character development than does simply assigning a +1 to

    +3 ECL from a template does. Where it`s been suggested that an approach

    that allows characters to start at 1st level will somehow "confining the

    character according to demands which are entirely external to the game" in

    reality the exact opposite is true.



    > > Rather, it`s playing a character from the beginning, through the

    > > development, and into the fruition of powers to which you are

    > > suggesting he should simply be gifted sans an characterization,

    > > any reward system or even any play.

    >

    >Bingo. Because that`s what blood powers are. They are innate gifts of the

    >divine, not earned rewards for experience. This, obviously, is where the

    >central disagreement lies.



    Well, that might be what you`d like them to be, but that`s not necessarily

    what they are. There are other interpretations of what blood powers are,

    how and when they manifest, and if we can have rules to play them out then

    it is reasonable to explore the options. Aside from that "innate" does not

    mean unearned, or that there is no process involved. In a system that has

    so many functions for accounting for character power it`s a good idea to

    address the issue mechanically.



    Most importantly, it isn`t an either/or proposition. They can still be

    innate (and "unearned") gifts of the gods because by simply assigning the

    template/ECL/level if the DM chooses that method. If one wants to

    role-play the discovery of blood abilities and have players explore the

    process by which they are gained then they can do that too.



    Gary

  8. #28
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Springfield Mo
    Posts
    3,562
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0
    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>

    Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 1:09 AM





    > the tainted, minor, major, great and true bloodline strength values

    > i-which have no real functional use in the original 2e bloodline



    It was possible to divine this information, and I rather think it would be

    known by the geneologists and heralds of the region, so that its primary

    focus was in role play. Irregardless of bloodstrength score, which I regard

    as a game mechanic, the named strength a regarded mostly as a source of

    prestige and honor among families. Among equal titles, the greater rank of

    blood would take precidence. For non-ruling scions, the named rank as more

    routine use than the score.



    > Well, there wasn`t a glimmer of the idea before Savage Species came out

    > that I ever recall reading, so the revelation would surprise anyone not

    > familiar with that book. Hindsight now fully in place, however, what

    > should really be obvious is not just that templates can be broken up into

    > character classes, but that such a method offers greater opportunities for

    > role-playing and character development than does simply assigning a +1 to

    > +3 ECL from a template does.



    In my BRCS treatment of character creation, which a few people have seen, I

    broke up the goblin template this way. I had some off-list discussion with

    John Machin on the utility of a goblin class based on the templates of the

    three relevant creatures. My notion at the time was that if you started off

    as a goblin, much like the backround class I already employ, why not advance

    as a goblin as well?



    > Where it`s been suggested that an approach that allows characters to

    > start at 1st level will somehow "confining the character according to

    > demands which are entirely external to the game" in reality the exact

    > opposite is true.



    Well I`d agree that its true, but I also find it undesirable. Since I

    neither desire the strangely brittle 1st level character, and I prefer the

    notion of the template`s inherentness, its clear why I would find a system

    that expects me to accept the drawbacks without the benefits of the template

    unappealing.



    > Well, that might be what you`d like them to be, but that`s not necessarily

    > what they are. There are other interpretations of what blood powers are,

    > how and when they manifest, and if we can have rules to play them out then

    > it is reasonable to explore the options.



    I didn`t say don`t explore them, and I rather think my criticism encourages

    that exploration. Since the last time I weighed in on this question was

    April/May of 2002, I don`t think its too much of a burden.



    > Aside from that "innate" does not mean unearned, or that there is no

    > process involved. In a system that has so many functions for accounting

    > for character power it`s a good idea to address the issue mechanically.



    I rather find this notion contrary to the very idea of innate.



    > Most importantly, it isn`t an either/or proposition. They can still be

    > innate (and "unearned") gifts of the gods because by simply assigning the

    > template/ECL/level if the DM chooses that method. If one wants to

    > role-play the discovery of blood abilities and have players explore the

    > process by which they are gained then they can do that too.



    Well it is an either/or for specific campaigns that don`t attempt hybrid

    systems. But for the community, yes, viva la difference.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  9. #29
    Senior Member teloft's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Reykjavík, Iceland
    Posts
    234
    Downloads
    10
    Uploads
    0
    Replying to Blood As Templet
    ______________________________________
    from the Brcs

    Blooded scion template
    "Blooded Scion" is a template that can be added to any aberration,
    animal, beast, dragon, giant, humanoid, magical beast,
    monstrous humanoid, or shapechanger. The creature uses its
    normal statistics, unless noted otherwise below. This template
    has three variations, corresponding to the three possible bloodline
    strengths of the scion: Minor, Major, or Great.

    ______________________________________


    when I think of the blood power, I think

    higlander/Starwars

    the Higlander

    in order to gain a new Blood abilitie of the divine blood you have to be exposed to blood alowing thet Blood abilitie.

    or

    kill somone with the Blood abilitie you want.

    or have a cleric transfear a potion of somonse Blood abilities into your system, then fule it with your Rp.

    or have a god transfear a potion of his own power / Blood abilitie into your system,
    and perhaps alow him to fully fule it as well.


    Im perhaps thinking somehting new here, I dont realy know.

    So you have a blood potential, thet is what Blood abilities you can manifest in your person.

    then you have bloodpoints, thet migth works as abilityscore.

    see &#39;Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells&#39;

    But I think it would be strange.

    I would rather like to think of the blood score as the leadership score of the leadership Blood abilitie.


    ______________________________________



    This is how I would like to think of begin blooded.

    Here are some rules on how to make your personal Blood templet.

    this templet alows some Blood abilities, depending on f.x. your family

    Now here is my family, and the usualy have theees blood Blood abilities
    <Blood abilitie 1> <Blood abilitie 2> <Blood abilitie 3>, and some are even known to have thees Blood abilities <Blood abilitie4> <Blood abilitie5> ...

    I have some of thees Blood abilities activaided bu using blood points to activaid them.
    the bloodpoint is permanetly bound to the Blood abilitie.

    and my total bloodscore is the total of all my bloodpoints storde in my Blood abilities.

    each Blood abilitie has a Rp storage as well.

    Rp are like powersells for the Blood abilities, thet dount run out. You usualy dont spend Rp when using your Blood abilities

    the Blood abilitie migth thow require some number of Rp to function, usualy the same amount as bloodpoints in thet Blood abilitie.

    loosing thees Rp points will make your Blood abilitie unusable. so you can become vonurable.

    as a standard evryone usualy has all there blood abilitys fuled fully with Rp.


    the Blood abilitie can also have exsta stogae for Rp.

    the total extra storage for Rp is your max reserv.


    and I intruduce a new Blood abilitie, extra reserv.

    alowing you to imbue your selfe with the trust of the land and its people, alowing you to efectively colect
    Rp and store it.


    ______________________________________

    old


    Strength of blood

    Tainted : lv 0

    Minor : lv 1

    Major : lv 2

    Great : lv 3

    True : lv 4

    Divine : lv 5

    Omnipotetial : lv 6 (your porbebly one of thows thet maid the prison named ravenloft)


    24 : 1-1

    28 : 1-1 2-1

    36 : 1-1 2-1 3-1

    40 : 1-2 2-1 3-1

    44 : 1-2 2-2 3-1

    52 : 1-2 2-2 3-2

    56 : 1-3 2-2 3-2

    ...

    ______________________________________


    Im itrudusing the 0 lv abilitys and the 4th lv abilitys

    0 lv is mostly only about storing Rp, and the bloodmark.

    while 4th lv is granting divine spells of low level, and some wery powerfull things.
    like &#39;create portfolio&#39;
    -begin able to have adept clerics and war clerics.


    now the 5th level is for the graiter gods. thows thet no longer need much
    holdings in terms of regents, become a force rather then begin in form.

    -ability to take form to figth in person.
    -one of thees abilitys would be to create the godly dimenchion for the afterlife.
    -begin able to have paladins
    -begin able to have normal clerics

    ______________________________________

    Bloodranks are bloodpoints permanetly conected to this ability.

    new


    <Blood abilitie name> <Blood Ranks> <Rp damage> <DC>

    <BloodRanks> <power awailabe>
    <BloodRanks> <power awailabe>
    <BloodRanks> <power awailabe>
    ...


    ______________________________________


    awailable example powers

    extra storing of RP
    Longer life
    ability to cast spells
    Other <Su> or <Sp> abilitys

    perhaps even some <Ex> abilitys like the paladins have. &#33;&#33;


    ______________________________________


    without extra storing of Rp you can only stor as much Rp as your bloodscore is.

    ______________________________________

    DC of blood ability is 10 + the level of the ability (Minor 1) + your blood ab bonus (+2) = 13

    ______________________________________


    what are your thougths here?

  10. #30
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Virginia Beach, Virginia
    Posts
    3,945
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Originally posted by teloft@Oct 31 2003, 07:49 AM
    Replying to Blood As Templet
    ______________________________________
    from the Brcs

    Blooded scion template
    "Blooded Scion" is a template that can be added to any aberration,
    animal, beast, dragon, giant, humanoid, magical beast,
    monstrous humanoid, or shapechanger. The creature uses its
    normal statistics, unless noted otherwise below. This template
    has three variations, corresponding to the three possible bloodline
    strengths of the scion: Minor, Major, or Great.

    ______________________________________

    Im perhaps thinking somehting new here, I dont realy know.

    So you have a blood potential, thet is what Blood abilities you can manifest in your person.

    then you have bloodpoints, thet migth works as abilityscore.

    see &#39;Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells&#39;

    But I think it would be strange.

    I would rather like to think of the blood score as the leadership score of the leadership Blood abilitie.


    ______________________________________



    This is how I would like to think of begin blooded.

    Here are some rules on how to make your personal Blood templet.

    this templet alows some Blood abilities, depending on f.x. your family

    Now here is my family, and the usualy have theees blood Blood abilities
    <Blood abilitie 1> <Blood abilitie 2> <Blood abilitie 3>, and some are even known to have thees Blood abilities <Blood abilitie4> <Blood abilitie5> ...

    I have some of thees Blood abilities activaided bu using blood points to activaid them.
    the bloodpoint is permanetly bound to the Blood abilitie.

    and my total bloodscore is the total of all my bloodpoints storde in my Blood abilities.

    each Blood abilitie has a Rp storage as well.

    Rp are like powersells for the Blood abilities, thet dount run out. You usualy dont spend Rp when using your Blood abilities

    the Blood abilitie migth thow require some number of Rp to function, usualy the same amount as bloodpoints in thet Blood abilitie.

    loosing thees Rp points will make your Blood abilitie unusable. so you can become vonurable.

    as a standard evryone usualy has all there blood abilitys fuled fully with Rp.


    the Blood abilitie can also have exsta stogae for Rp.

    the total extra storage for Rp is your max reserv.


    and I intruduce a new Blood abilitie, extra reserv.

    alowing you to imbue your selfe with the trust of the land and its people, alowing you to efectively colect
    Rp and store it.


    ______________________________________

    old


    Strength of blood

    Tainted : lv 0

    Minor : lv 1

    Major : lv 2

    Great : lv 3

    True : lv 4

    Divine : lv 5

    Omnipotetial : lv 6 (your porbebly one of thows thet maid the prison named ravenloft)


    24 : 1-1

    28 : 1-1 2-1

    36 : 1-1 2-1 3-1

    40 : 1-2 2-1 3-1

    44 : 1-2 2-2 3-1

    52 : 1-2 2-2 3-2

    56 : 1-3 2-2 3-2

    ...

    ______________________________________


    Im itrudusing the 0 lv abilitys and the 4th lv abilitys

    0 lv is mostly only about storing Rp, and the bloodmark.

    while 4th lv is granting divine spells of low level, and some wery powerfull things.
    like &#39;create portfolio&#39;
    -begin able to have adept clerics and war clerics.


    now the 5th level is for the graiter gods. thows thet no longer need much
    holdings in terms of regents, become a force rather then begin in form.

    -ability to take form to figth in person.
    -one of thees abilitys would be to create the godly dimenchion for the afterlife.
    -begin able to have paladins
    -begin able to have normal clerics

    ______________________________________

    Bloodranks are bloodpoints permanetly conected to this ability.

    new


    <Blood abilitie name> <Blood Ranks> <Rp damage> <DC>

    <BloodRanks> <power awailabe>
    <BloodRanks> <power awailabe>
    <BloodRanks> <power awailabe>
    ...


    ______________________________________


    awailable example powers

    extra storing of RP
    Longer life
    ability to cast spells
    Other <Su> or <Sp> abilitys

    perhaps even some <Ex> abilitys like the paladins have. &#33;&#33;


    ______________________________________


    without extra storing of Rp you can only stor as much Rp as your bloodscore is.

    ______________________________________

    DC of blood ability is 10 + the level of the ability (Minor 1) + your blood ab bonus (+2) = 13

    ______________________________________


    what are your thougths here?
    You know this lays out more like a class than a template. There are a few templates that grant scaling abilities based on character level, but most do not. Almost all the existing templates give the template abilities as soon as the template is gained and don&#39;t depend on character level or any other independent measure of power (like an ability score or in this case a blood score).
    Duane Eggert

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
BIRTHRIGHT, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, D&D, the BIRTHRIGHT logo, and the D&D logo are trademarks owned by Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and are used by permission. ©2002-2010 Wizards of the Coast, Inc.