Elves/dwarves & Rule Province

[Osprey]

One of the ideas that's been churning around in my brain is this: if elves somehow stay forever young, is it really just a physical effect, with no effect on the mind, memory, etc.? So often in RPG's, the immortal issue gets treated like "immortals are like humans, only they never grow old."

Yet a modern understanding of the mind links it very closely to the body; i.e., physiology and mentality are deeply intertwined. Which begs the question: just how do elves stay "ever-young?"

We've been debating back and forth on this issue, yet it definitely remains to be answered, and the answers could lead to some very different approaches to things like: how much DO elves learn/remember/grow over time?

One hypothesis I've been playing with is that the same metaphysical mechanism that keeps elves from aging may also inhibit their ability to really capitalize on all those centuries of experience the way a human might.

One of the sources for this hypothesis is the traditional faeries. They are often characterized as creatures of whimsy, very much dwelling in the present and very detached from the past. Although they may grow and change over time, this is often more of a metamorphic process in which they leave an old form behind and assume a new one for a period of time. In other words, the fae don't have the all of the psychological baggage that humans carry around. While this would have definite advantages (like a relatively stress-free existence), it might also have real disadvantages from a power perspective, such as the inability for long-term development of skills, difficulty (if not a complete block) in learning from experience, and thus being proactive in preventing future repetitions of problems (like protecting the remaining elven realms from being wiped out the same way the earlier ones were).

All of this probably seems a little far-out, but it's an interesting exploration into the psychology/physiology of an essentially alien race. All too often I think elves are treated like long-lived human tree-huggers; understandable if they're being described by humans whi just don't "get it." But when we're trying to describe elves from their own perspective, or from the "godseye" perspective of game designers, we're required to really ask ourselves just how different they might be, and how the rules do or do not apply to them.

I've said & explored the timelessness of the Sidhe in a number of ways on various threads, but I'll keep posting because I still think it's territory that needs to be explored. But it's hard because of its very in-humaness.

Biologically, aging is a process of gradual breakdown and increasing inefficiency of an organism's physiological systems. Eventually, one or another system can't cope with the continual assault of pathogens and the wear and tear of continual muscle/joint use. Hence, more illnesses, joint and muscle problems, and eventually a fatal illness will result from the effects of aging. These are all nicely generalized in the aging penalties in the PHB. However, the mental bonuses from aging have NOTHING to do with phsiological breakdown. They generalize the inevitable learning, wisdom, and self-possession that results from simply surviving and living through the experience that is life.

If elves don't age, what that really means is that their bodies simply don't break down or grow inefficient. But how is this achieved? Is it an actual immunity to the passage of time? Or do their bodies in fact age, but are constantly regenerated in the presence of mebhaighal (as I suggested in my sidhe variant)? That would explain why they DO begin to age in the Shadow World.

I think the latter explanation does the best job of explaining the elven state of everlasting youth, without making things too metaphysically messy. Time, on the other hand, DOES get messy, no doubt about that!

But now we must answer the question "Why don't elves gain the mental bonuses of surviving over time?" Because they don't have anything to do with biology, right? If anything, the brain becomes less efficient over time, as it breaks down along with everything else in the body when aging occurs. Those mental bonuses obviously represent a net gain over loss. This suggests that elves would gain even bigger mental bonuses over time, if we assume that they learn from experience in a manner similar to humans.

So if we want to keep balance in the setting, rather than go with the Tolkienish "ultimate superior species" version of elves, we still need a mechanism to explain why elves don't turn into super-genius godlings after a thousand years of existence.

My best stab at this one is to go back to the beginning of this post: it is instinctual within the elven nature to dwell always in the present, to thrive in the moment that is now, and let go of the past. This tends to agree with the chaotic nature of elves, a combination of capricious whimsy and circumstantial inspiriation. 'Carpe diem' makes for a good elven motto.

The trade-off is a tendency to forget a great deal of their own history. Skills once learned fade away as the elf engages his being in a different path than in the last few centuries. As new skills are gained, old ones fade away, and thus we don't have the problems of super-epic elves overpopulating the elven realms of Cerilia.

[This might be an elven scholar's depiction of human ambition] "To cling to one's past is a very human concept; they scrupulously record and celebrate their history, ancestors, achievements, and afterlife, because their own [very brief] existence doesn't allow them to actually experience even a fraction of what their minds can concieve. So they use their imaginations to expand their existence beyond their limited lives, and then find ways to connect themselves to that past, and to an imagined future ("destiny," such a grand pretense for ambition&#33, and thus allow themselves to believe they are part of some grand historical tapestry that extends for thousands of years in either direction. What elaborate folly..."

Within this context, it becomes clear why things like the Gheallie Sidhe represent a corruption of the pure elven nature, and how someone like Rhuobhe Manslayer epitomizes that corruption. To cling to hatred, to focus on it and cultivate it, is essentially unnatural, and moreover, represents a most unhealthy inability to let go of past grievances. These are the elves who are consumed from within, who cannot forget and so suffer. And in their suffering they lash out in violence at the ones they hold responsible, unable to comprehend that (more often than not) the humans they hunt have so very little connection to the humans who wronged them and their kin long ago.

I imagine the wiser elves shake their heads at this sort of behavior; they understand all too well the irony of their situation. To embrace hatred and not let go of the past, the elves erode that inner nature which makes them elven. And so while they try to save the remnants of elvenkind, they are in fact destroying it. A cruel, cruel trap from which there seems little escape, especially as the Gheallie Sidhe forever renews the human fear and hatred of the Sidhelien, and ultimately dooms the last of them to extinction.

To reflect this, imagine that as elves lose their elven nature, they also begin to gradually lose their immunity to the passage of time on their bodies. And thus they begin to age...imperceptibly at first, but the effects become more and more noticable as they continue their unceasing war. Wounds heal more slowly, the first lines of care (and hate) begin to be etched on their faces. The elders of the Hunt actually begin to gain streaks of gray in their hair, to suffer from aches and pains and minor colds. And the oldest of all may even die from illness or disease eventually. But of course, the humans will be blamed...

Rhuobhe stands as an exception, because his powerful bloodline insulates him from the effects of this corruption. Who would ever believe that an elf would have need of the blood power of Long Life? Yet I believe Rhuobhe would in fact possess it, though he would tell no one, standing as a false example to other elves that there are no ill effects in pursuing the Gheallie Sidhe.


...Whew! Wow, I don't know where all of that came from, but I like it! What think the rest of you?

-Osprey

[geeman]

Osprey writes:



>Wow, I don`t know where all of that came from, but I like it!

>What think the rest of you?



When it comes to the "psychology of immortality" I`ve a few ideas that are

similar to those you expressed (kudos on the analysis, BTW.) In general

it`s probably sufficient to simply note that the mental and spiritual

processes of an immortal being must be nature be radically different from a

mortal, not just in that their process of aging stops which would have many

fundamental changes to a human psyche, but in that their mental structure

and biological workings to accompany it might be very different from that of

humanity. They may not even have DNA, cerebrums, a hypothalumus, etc.

Sure, they can mix with mortals to create half-elves, but half-elves are

dramatically more human than elven--at least as far as their lifespan is

concerned. Game mechanically they get several elven traits, but if you were

to track the "reality of immortality" a half-elf might be driven insane by

immortality where an elf would not. One of the mainstays of fantasy/sci-fi

literature is that humans can`t really handle immortality. Mortals are

simply incapable of living infinitely, experiencing a never ending series of

life`s tragedies, joys, etc. without being driven bonkers by it. There may

be a select few mortals with the stamina to live for ages, but most would

lose it long before dying a physical death.



Elves simply aren`t wired for such insanity. They endure. What that means

in role-playing terms is up for debate. Elves may all have a sort of

timeless, "1,000 yard stare" or, I suppose, a "1,000 year stare." Elves

would rarely hurry in the way mortals might, and the acquisition of material

things would probably mean less since they will all eventually decay, break

or otherwise fall out of fashion/utility, etc.



Personally, I like the interpretation that Cerilian elves have a "spirit"

that is tied to the material plane of Aebrynis rather than a "soul" that

passes on to planes beyond the SW. With that interpretation we can

extrapolate some behaviors and attitudes for elves, similar to those you

described.



Gary

[teloft]

the tolkin version of a elf

the imortal thet would not go away from this world even thow phisical deth happens. there is the path of the elves. they are to gather in a nice palace across the seas if phisical deth accures, there thay are reincarnate, and are to wait for the end of the world. singing about the sorro for begin parted with there loved ones.

the humans on the other hand had a nohter path. when in deth, thay dint stay in this world, but traveld to the next one, where there was some other task to be done.

the elfs dont know were the humans go when thay die. But a elf can go the human path, if there love is with the humans, usualy some cahrismatic male migth draw a fragile elf female to her deth along with him. to travel out of the world.

I like to add a note here.

the ORC's of Tolkin were corupded elves. but elf blodded no the less. only by the darkness of the evil maja thay got this way. Sould thay not travel to the same halls as the elves do in there deth. ??

this is not an Birthright elf Im talking about.

h34r: