Urban Provinces

[tcharazazel]

So are you saying with the 30 province requirement that the 100,000 people for a level 10 province comes from them, without dropping th elevel of any province? It would be 3334 people per province and if its an equal distribution than it would likely drop the lower level provinces (4 and under) by a level.

And that was a main issue we ran into before, the question of where do the people come from.

It`s part of a much larger rewrite of the Build action, and to be honest
it`s not all in a very nice, postable format right now, so tell ya`
what. Give me a few days and I`ll put some work into it and post it in a
more complete format.

Hey Gary, have you ever goten around to rewriting up the Build action that you taked about? and will ya post up your ideas now?


I like you idea for the utilities wonders, question though, could you have multiple utiliy wonders or just 1 really and it would end up having multiple functions?

[geeman]

tcharazazel writes:



> Hey Gary, have you ever goten around to rewriting up the Build action that you taked about? and will ya post up your ideas now? I like you idea for the utilities wonders, question though, could you have multiple utiliy wonders or just 1 really and it would end up having multiple functions?



Geez, I haven`t looked at that stuff in a while.... Seems like all I want

to do lately is write up awn-/ersheghlien and all that malarky. I`ll take a

look when I get home to see what I`ve got written up so I can post it,

though.



Gary

[OsricIlien]

We'll actually I was assuming the 30 province pre-reg because I thought a regent would need to have a large realm to create a city that would stand out and be the icon of the nation.(like when I think of France I picture Paris)

Your also assuming that the settlers of the city are coming only from the regents domain. This is sort-of shortsighted. Immigrants would come from many different places to join a city that would stand out so clearly. Certainly the majority would come from the regent's domain but enough would come from immigrating families that there would not be any decrease in province levels.

[tcharazazel]

Not realy shortsighted as the regent has 30 provinces his capital is likely to be in the middle of the 30 provinces or near the middle so he can effectively rule over them. It gets very difficult to rule over provinces when they the capical is like 20 provinces away (if he is ruling over a long strip of provinces along the coast for example) or even 10 provinces away, as 10 provinces away the provinces are likely to be in a different region then. Thus, if he is in a radius with about 7-8 of his own provinces surrounding his capital, then its not so likely he will be getting the majority of the 100,000 people from his own provinces.

The other reason its not short sighted is the way you set it up, as it doesnt require a diplomacy action in other realms to win over those people to come join his new UP. He is only using an agitate action to get HIS OWN people riled up to join the UP not his neigbors people. Thus, expecting the extra people to come from any surrounding realms that maybe about 8 provinces away, and possibly even in a different region, is very shortsighted on your part.

Since he is getting the majority of the 100,000 people for the level 10 UP, he would need to lower the population of the surrounding provinces. Now, if you did it like i suggested, creating virtual levels (which was Osprey's idea) then you would be able to raise the population of the province, where the UP will be located, or as you have it requiring 1 season to build up the UP wonder, then each season it gains an effective incrrease in population... however, as the UP is not yet created these people are still considered to be in the province, its just a different way of keeping track of the population.

If the populace from the surrounding area is taken slowly, ie 1 season at a time, it would then make sense that there would be no major loss in population and thus no provinces would drop in level. However, if you do it the way you originally proposed then there would be a sudden drop in population throughout the regents lands, which would likely cause a drop in the province level. So just making that little tweak would solve your problem.

[Ksaturn]

I'd like to note that... province level is NOT directly tied to population... Its tied to your control over & the overall orginization of said population. The #'s for citizens is something of a example average to me.

[tcharazazel]

Heh, if province level is not tied to population, then how could you have a province with only 1000 people be considered a level 10 province? Of course its tied to population! If there are not enough people then there isnt enough labor, merchants, priests, ect to have any of the development that occur in the higher level provinces. This is why in the BRCS they put the approximate number of citizen for each level of the province, pg 88.

Here is a quote from the BRCS for ya on that same page, "The difining domain-level measure of a province is not its size, but rather its level -- its overall measure of its population, technology, and industrial prosperity."

So you can see population is the Key factor in a province, as without any people, there would be not technology nor industrial prosperity!


You are mistaking Province levels for Holding levels. Holdings also depend upon population, however, the higher they get the more control over the population they have, until they reach the provinces level, then they control all of that holding. Thus, population size is important to the holdings, only in that it sets teh limit for the province level and thus the max level for the holding.. Holdings are described on the next page, pg 89.

[OsricIlien]

Thank You Paul.
I appericiate your suggestion. What i was thinking was that people would slowly be moving into the city throughout the entire period that the building was occuring. Slowly gaining enough population for the UP. Sadly game mechanics dont always work with real life very well. I think thats part of the problem its's hard to put what really happens in situations like this into a game perspective. I liked Osprey's idea but thought it a bit long-winded and more complicated than it needs to be(a habit that he really gets into) :P But it certainly has merit. I was trying to come up with something a bit more streamlined game mechanic wise. I had not spent a lot of time dealing with the real world comparison.
Any way
Thanks

[tcharazazel]

Yeah, game mechs and real life def arent perfect.

Well, if they are moving during that time period, then they maybe instead of having the UP start at level 10, have it start at level 0 and each season he can raise it up.

It would require the wonder to be equal level with the UP level. Thus the wonder would go up 1 level a season, and could potentially go up to level 10, however, to get the people to move there it would require the reaise province action by the regent. That would account for the extra costs of creating and maintaing an UP , and the people moving there.

[soudhadies]

Here is a quote from the BRCS for ya on that same page, "The difining domain-level measure of a province is not its size, but rather its level -- its overall measure of its population, technology, and industrial prosperity."

The BRCS p. 88 also goes on to say that the level provides a "rough metric for determining the number of loyal taxpaying human commoners in a rural province", which means that they aren't really reflective of the total population of a province after all. Firstly, because not all inhabitants are loyal, and secondly because not all inhabitants pay taxes (and some aren't human either ).

I recently made some comments about more reasonable estimates in population on another thread (http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...showtopic=2740), that come up with some pretty good numbers (I checked against real world equivalents and there is good correlation).

While I am against the whole concept of "urban provinces", as IMO The imperial City of Anuire is a unique historical case (alright, if you build a continental empire that lasts a thousand years, then maybe I'll allow you to have an urban province). But, given my numbers, if I were to allow the creation of such divisions, I would just break off the most populous urban center of the province and say: "You're urban". That province would then gain a level corresponding to its city's size on the total province population chart.

For example, say I have Ilien, a level 7 province with a total population of 216, 691. I want to emancipate the city of Ilien from the province. The population of the city would be around 13,306. So that means that the population of the rural province will take a blow, going down to 203, 685, but this isn't enough to push the province down to level six (total pop 174, 182), and would recover eventually without too much trouble. The city of Ilien however, doesn't quite have enough people to be considered a level 1 province, so instead it is a level 0 urban province and will have to be ruled up from there. In fact, only level 10 provinces boast large enough urban populations to spawn an urban province of level 1, and only provinces of level 6 or higher should be allowed to spawn level 0 urban provinces.

A reasonable restriction would be to say that only Metropolises (these only appear at level 10 in my charts) can be spun off into urban provinces, and that this follows the natural progression of provincial developement. Once a province hits the level 10 wall (which is dictated by land availability more than anything else. Only 12 counties in the world today have more than 40% arable land, about 3/4 have 20% or less) it enters a new stage in development by spinning off a city which gains a life and character of its own, independent of later effects to the mother city. Possibly a successful rule action on a level 10 province would instead of raising the province level, create a level 1 urban province which could grow from there. Of course it would be reasonably to say that any given province could only generate one urban province(all other major centers would be the UP's metropolitan area). Heck, I'm just throwing out ideas now, cause its getting late .

Anyway, I realize that my charts aren't 100% applicable to independent cities, given that they are based on agricultural developement, but it would make things easier to standardize and just assume wouldn't it? I also realize that they are nowhere near BRCS canon, and so probably will end up being irrelevant anyway, but now that I think of it, I like the idea of level 1 urban provinces being created by a successful rule of a level 10 province. It sort of explains where the population comes from (the previous urban population, and the rule action) and it gives the player a new province that still needs growth to reach its full potential.

[tcharazazel]

Yeah, that would also work, however, I'd say that it should start out at level 0 as you are essentially creating the UP. This would be setting up the beuracratic foundation, trade networks, ect. required to rule a UP.

When you essentially create the UP by raising up the province, would you then be raising the province to level 11, for game mech perposes. Thus, you would have a DC of 10 + 11 (for next level of the province). Also would you need to continue to follow this method for raising the UP level, or would you only use it for its first level?

Pros for making it harder to raise the UP level are that fewer regents would be able to do so, unless they are very gifted rulers (epecially if you use the house rules that Osprey set up for raising provinces above level 10, which can be seen here: Southern Alliance)

If you are just calling it a regular province after its creation, then its much easier to rule up, as the DC to rule the province wil be just 10 + 1 for level 1, which it really shouldnt be.