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  1. #1
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    As I've been setting up my pbem, I've worked out the GB collection for various levels of holdings, rounded down to the nearest 1/2 GB. Might be of use to people out there.

    LEVEL.....LAW.......GUILD/TEMPLE
    1.............0 GB.......0.5 GB
    2.............0.5 GB....1 GB
    3.............1 GB.......2 GB
    4.............1 GB.......2.5 GB
    5.............1.5.........3 GB
    6.............2 GB.......4 GB
    7.............2 GB.......4.5 GB
    8.............2.5 GB.....5 GB
    9.............3 GB........6 GB
    10...........3 GB........6.5 GB

    As these collections are a little lower than were expected during the original rules, I'm using the following optional rule.
    +0.5 GB to guild and temple collection in provinces of level 4-5
    +1 GB to guild and temple collections in province of level 6-7
    +1.5 GB to guild and temple collection in provinces of level 8-9
    +2 GB to guild and temple collection in provinces of level 10+

    That brings it a little closer to the original.

    For example: A level 5 holding in a level 5 province used to collect up to 6 GB, now it collects 3 which is about right, but a level 1 holding in a level 5 province used to collect 1-2 GB, but now collects only 0.5. Adding the +0.5 GB bonus, would give the level 5 holding a collection of 3.5 GB, and the level 1 holding 1 GB, which is about the same as the old average collection.

    comments?
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  2. #2
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    I'm of teh school of thought that thinks gb revenue and cost should be times by 12 and reduce a gb's value to 1/10 its current value. or 200gp instead of 2000gp. This doesnt change gold bar costs amd maintinance nor does it effect anything else but make book keeping easier as all maintiance and revenue is in whole units. and since all revenue is based on a multiple of 12 its easy to determine their revenue per turn
    province = 12 per level
    law = 4 per level
    guild = 8 per level
    temple = 8 per level

    looks alot but when things cost 12 times as much it works out to be 100% the same as the current system but has the advantage of being easier to use in the book keeping phase.

    While this is very very different from the original it is superior. Original doesnt equal better nor does new equal better but a system that uses whole numbers for all maintance and revenue creates a superior system than one that has 1/12 of a gb maintance for a ferry.

    But the system that I presented (I'm not the originator) is one that doesnt have to be offical as any compedent GM/DM can either use the offical sytem or this system.

    The disadvantage of your system is that it reduced revenue to 1/2 GB levels and thus costs alot of GB over just a few turns. And as far as I can see the only reason for your system is nostalgia. Since it doesnt deal with the fractional maintance costs of bridges and such and so you have made revenue collection only marginaly easier at the cost of revenue and yet havent dealt with the more difficult process of the book keeping phase and that is maintainace and if you round things off to 1/2 gb you will likely increase the cost of many items and so you will create a system the reduces revenue and increases maintance and thus create an imbalance that didnt exist before.

    Your system adds a level of complexity with your level adjestments and yet I beleive you wished to create 1/2 gb increments to make the system less complex. So I just dont think its a good change. Is there another reason for such a change that I have been remiss in noticing?

  3. #3
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    Actually revenue increases slightly for some regents.

    Take the Copper & Coke guild for example. If you go with the original rules they should get 5.4 GB a turn, with mine they get an even 6. Looking at the Master of the Hunt (Lluabraight). In original rules he gets 5.9 GB, under mine he gets 3, which I prefer to see (I didn't like the high law collection, so this system cuts it). Another example if The White Hand, a small temple with only 5 levels of holdings. Under standard rules they get 3.4 GB a turn, under mine they get 3.5. So guild and temple regents work out about the same, law regents are about 1/2 normal.

    As for the complexity of a system, reading the values off a table is a hell of a lot quicker that having to calculate each one seperately (as you needed to with the original BRCS system). As for the fraction maintenance of highways etc, I altered all of that as well.

    Note: None of this is offical BRCS material, this is just something I'm using for my pbem to make the resolution of turns run faster. If it works, I might propose some of the ideas for the BRCS, if not then I'll just go back to the original rules.
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    are you referint to teh 2e values? or teh d20 values? I think you refer to the 2e values of which I am only limitedly familiar with it. But as of the current d20 system you could create a tale just as easy with the 1/3 or 2/3 system.

    Level -- Law----Temple/Guild---- province

    1 _____1/3______2/3__________1
    2______2/3______1 1/3________2
    3______1________2___________3
    4______1 1/3_____2 2/3________4
    5______1 2/3_____3 1/3________5
    6______2________4___________6
    7______2 1/3_____4 2/3________7
    8______2 2/3_____5 1/3________8
    9______3________6___________9
    10_____3 1/3_____6 2/3________10

    There you go a simple table to look at without the added complexity of the adding a 1/2 gb here for this size province/holding or teh like. And this is the standard d20 ruleset currently. not even the proposal I gave to you the eliminates fractions all together. In both revenue and mantinance.

    The tables for that is as follows

    Level -- Law----Temple/Guild---- province

    1 _____4_________8__________12
    2______8________16__________24
    3______12_______24__________36
    4______16_______32__________48
    5______20_______40__________60
    6______24_______48__________72
    7______28_______56__________84
    8______32_______64__________96
    9______36_______72__________108
    10_____40_______80__________120

    this appears like a huge amount of Gb but when you look at the maintance/build table(p.90) you see that its just a perceptual change the ratio of revenue and maintance is 100% the same as the current rule set.

    Asset type ------ Build cost ------- maint./season
    Bridge (wood)____36______________3
    (stone)__________72______________6
    Ferry____________12______________1
    Fortification(prov.)__96xlvl___________8xLvl
    (holding)_________48xLvl__________4xLvl
    Highway
    (plains,steppe,scrub)_24____________2
    (desert,forest,hills)___48____________4
    (swamp,tundra)_____72____________6
    Glacier,mountains)___96____________8
    Palace____________72xlvl__________6xlvl
    Seaport___________72_____________6
    shipyard___________48xlvl__________4xlvl
    wondrous structure___300xlvl________24xlvl

    Ships and units are variable and cost x12 their listed value in chapter 6 and spell componant costs are x12 their listed value in chapter 7.

    These values are all just simply 12 times their listed values on page 90 of teh current rule set and this made all book keeping 100% easier than any system that adds fractions to it. As you can see its easier than your current system because you dont have the province size factors to it and the maintance aspect is all in whole numbers.

    So is there a reason why you feel your system would be an improvement to these two tables? Because any improment to the system is important. But I havent seen any system that is better than this system. Some people dont like the high integer values but that is more an astetic complaint than a complexity complaint. As it easier to add and subtract whole numbers than to deal with 6 different fractions and converting them.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    When using BRCS collections, I just add up all levels of holdings before calculating income. Much easier that way when determining seasonal maintenance. Thus, 30 levels of temples earns 20 GB (level x 2/3). Fractions aren't so bad when you don't have to add tons of them together. Generally, I just round to the nearest whole GB for the final maintenance and collection costs. It's worked OK for me, but then again, I don't mind the math. In truth, the math is far less than any real-world costs and figures, and already massively simplified.

  6. #6
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    Airgedok,
    I was referring to the 2E (original) rules for collection. Under that system the gold collection for temple and guild regents was higher as the level of the province increased. I quite liked that rule, which is why I introduced it for my pbem.

    I quite like the table set up for 1/3 GB or 2/3 GB collection you have there. I might see if we can't include it in the revised BRCS, just as a quick reference.

    I'd have to say that I'm one of those who doesn't like the higher values, they just seem a little big...

    I guess the main reason I'm using my system is that my calculator is on the blink and I wanted to use something that is easier to work out. Your system works fine, but the numbers are too large for me to quickly add up in my head, unlike the system I use. I know the addition of collection bonuses for temples and guilds in high level provinces adds a level of complexity, but it was necessary for the pbem to balance out the PC realms against the NPCs, and counter some other house rules I'm using (which I'm not going to mention here because some players from the games are likely to be reading).

    As for why I'm rounding all collections off to .5 GB, I think your table shows that it doesn't make a huge difference, and by rounding ALL fractions in the game down to the nearest 1/2 GB, it makes everything nice and simple, at least for me.


    Osprey,
    Adding all the levels together and then calculating the GB collection from the total is how I'm working out the GB collection for realms and organisations in the Atlas of Cerilia. It is by far the easiest way.

    However, because I'm using the seizure rule for law regent, as well as some other varitations to GB collection, I wanted all the province/holdings seperated so I could see how many GB each collected. Makes it easier to change something in this case.
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  7. #7
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    Originally posted by Osprey@Oct 12 2003, 01:31 PM
    When using BRCS collections, I just add up all levels of holdings before calculating income. Much easier that way when determining seasonal maintenance. Thus, 30 levels of temples earns 20 GB (level x 2/3). Fractions aren't so bad when you don't have to add tons of them together. Generally, I just round to the nearest whole GB for the final maintenance and collection costs. It's worked OK for me, but then again, I don't mind the math. In truth, the math is far less than any real-world costs and figures, and already massively simplified.
    I just hate it when GM round up for maintiance and/or down for revenue collection. I want every 1/12 of a GB i can get! I dont mind the fractions myself because i can convert them in 2 seconds but many a GM just hates them. And yet rounding tends to hurt the player.

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    I've always done accounting to 2 decimal places, but would like to see an income (and expenditures) table that is geared to 1/4 GB increments...

    Temples and Guilds get 3/4 GB, Law gets 1/4 GB per level. If all income and expenses were in 1/4 GB increments, math would be quick and easy for new players.

    Of course I'm an old SFB player using fractional accounting, so I've seen people tracking 1/32 points of power on Andro ships....
    "It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion -- and usually easier."

    - R. A. Heinlien, from The Collected works of Lazarus Long

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    I still don´t see what is wrong with the corrent system! Fractions are only a probelm if you are use to working with a calculator! Hey I bet that if you use the system you get the hang of it with in one playing setion.
    But if you bust up all values, like someone sugjected to times 12, you dimines the the value of money in your mind. It is just like the italian currency, it was so ridiculue amounsts of money you where paying that one lost all sence of the value, even if one would allway callculat to dollars or some outher curency in me case Krone.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    I agree - thirds and quarters just don't mix very well. It's the one complaint I have about the current system. And if guilds and temples make a little more, while law makes a little less (not including collections, which work pretty well in the current system IMO), I think that's fine.

    On the other hand, as has been discussed recently, guilds and especially temples often end up having way more gold than they know what to do with...they could definitely use more temple-specific assets that have maintenance costs. Most landed/law regents are happy to tax guilds and demand tribute from them, but demanding tribute from temples is a much stickier situation...most don't take too well to that sort of thing.

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