New Costs For Magic Item Creation

[Green Knight]

Better spent on metamagic? Would I rather have a feat that allows me to

enhance my spells at great cost in increased spell level, or a feat that

give me "unlimited" access to key spells?



Craft Wand is almost too good to be true. What Wizard can do without -

I`d like to have access to 50 fireballs and 50 dispel magic? And what

about Craft Wondrous Item? It gives access to an infinite variety of

items...



-----Original Message-----

From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion

[mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Ariadne

Sent: 15. oktober 2003 13:44

To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM

Subject: Re: New Costs For Magic Item Creation [36#2006]



This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

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Ariadne wrote:

IMO creating magical items is expensive enough (exeptionally if you

include the XP costs), further you need feats that are spend better as

"General" or "Metamagic". Making the item creation

even more expensive is not the right way...







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[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Ariadne@Oct 15 2003, 06:43 AM
IMO creating magical items is expensive enough (exeptionally if you include the XP costs), further you need feats that are spend better as "General" or "Metamagic". Making the item creation even more expensive is not the right way...

But this is a comment on the core rules itself and not really a Birthright specific one. That is, as I see it you feel that the 3/3.5 rules are too harsh on wizards. What isn't addresed is should Birthright have a lower occurrence of magic items than the standard campaign. That is the question that should be addressed and not what is wrong with the core rules, it is a matter of relativeness - how is the magic item occurrence in Birthright in relation to a standard core rules campaign (and not a high magic one like Forgotten Realms).

[Osprey]

But this is a comment on the core rules itself and not really a Birthright specific one. That is, as I see it you feel that the 3/3.5 rules are too harsh on wizards. What isn't addresed is should Birthright have a lower occurrence of magic items than the standard campaign. That is the question that should be addressed and not what is wrong with the core rules, it is a matter of relativeness - how is the magic item occurrence in Birthright in relation to a standard core rules campaign (and not a high magic one like Forgotten Realms).

.

This is why increased item costs, RP for xp, RP required, etc., etc., should all remain optional variant rules rather than core BR rules. All of these variants would have pretty dramatic effects on the campaign setting, and I believe it should remain in the hands of the individual DM to decide just what sort of magical level he/she wants in the campaign.

-Osprey

[ConjurerDragon]

Airgedok schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...ST&f=36&t=2006

>

> Airgedok wrote:

>

----- Original Message -----<>

> From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET><>

> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 4:54 AM<>

> <>

> <>

> > So by requiring RP to be spent, a magician can not create a scroll<>

> <>

> Do those looking to slow down magic item creation also want to include<>

> one-shot spell storage devices? Or, are we talking about permenent or<>

> multi-shot only?<>

> <>

> Kenneth Gauck<>

> kgauck@mchsi.com<>

>

> Thats a good point. Are scrolls considered magic items by most people when the talk about magic items. While they maybe technicly magic items do people view them as such? I know as a player i view scrolls a seperate from magic items sort of their own special catagory. The same with potions but to most other people?

>

> Are potions and scolls more rare in a magicly poor world?



In my opinion one-shot magical items should be available in same number

as in D&D core.



Wizards are not the only capable of creating magical items, BR Priests

face no more restrictions than 3E core priests, Magicians should IMO

certainly be able to create items of their own area of expertice

(Crystal Balls for example). And for wide spread access to low-power

items aren´t there some NPC Adepts living in a hut just outside every

village? ;-)



Even the 2E Book of Regency allowed the option to have a chance to

collect magical items as potions or scrolls in lieu of taxes

bye

Michael

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Ariadne@Oct 15 2003, 06:43 AM
IMO creating magical items is expensive enough (exeptionally if you include the XP costs), further you need feats that are spend better as "General" or "Metamagic". Making the item creation even more expensive is not the right way...

I just did a little work on putting into a table the costs to create magic items (specifically weapons) and it is surprisingly cheap using the DMG as a basis. A wizard (for example, although the rules aply to any spellcaster) could make a +2 long sword for the following:

Market Price (base cost) equals 8,315 gp {8,000 for +2 and 315 for masterwork item cost}. The creator pays 1/2 of this price in material costs (4,157 gp) and 1/25th of the base cost in exp (332 xp) and takes 8 days {1 day for every 1,000 gp of it&#39;s magical features}. It requires a 6th caster in order to create it also (caster level = 3 times the enhancement bonus). Since it requires a 6th level caster to creat the item the range of exp that the character has is 15,333 to 20,999. 332 is a very small percentage of this total and the result is a permanent +2 magic item, pretty good trade off IMO.

To craft a wand of fireballs is likewise relatively inexpensive. Market price is 11,250 gp {Caster level (assume 5th level) times spell level (3rd level spell) times 750 gp}. The caster must be at least 5th level in order to craft a wand. The material cost is 5625 gp {one half the market price}, the exp cost is 450 {1/25 of the base price} and it takes 11 days to make {one day for every 1,000 gp in base price}. In exchange the caster gains a wand with 50 charges that each charge casts a fireball as if cast by a 5th level caster.

This is really worth while especially for surviveability, now that the wizard doesn&#39;t have to constantly memorize multiple fireball spells he/she is free to memorize other spells for more usefulness.

If time and money is an issue just creating a scroll is very usefull. Base price is 375 gp {spell level times caster level times 25 gp}, material costs of 187 gp {1/2 the base price}, exp cost of 15 xp {1/25 of base price} and takes 1 day to make {one day per 1,000 gp base price}. This yields a scroll with a fireball spell cast by a 5th level caster.

Item creation feats are extremely useful for spell casters, especially wizards.

[kari]

I say


to create a magic item one would need to spend his blodpoints.

Thows bloodpoints still count as his own, unless he dies. So when the magic item is ruind the blood returns. If the owner of the blood is dead, anyine can clame the blood. as when you kill a blooded one.


Rigth, anyone can have his magic item created for him, the creator dont have to use his own blood, any blood can be used.

The item will have a blend character of the Blood and the owner.


If one would like to create lesser magic item thed is not intelegent, one would need to find ways to supress the intelegence fo the item.

The solution begin not to use blod points in the creation of the item.

But thows secrits needed to be found, and the misterys to create cheep magic item can only be unlocked by the DM,

one would probebly need to rule a large empire to be able to gather the source needed. Have hordes of mages constructing and resacrsching the hidden powers. and Build several wonders specified for the purpuse of creating cheep magic items.

So the future will be flodde in cheep magic items, but not the present..

[ConjurerDragon]

kari schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...ST&f=36&t=2006

>

> kari wrote:

> I say

> to create a magic item one would need to spend his blodpoints.

> Thows bloodpoints still count as his own, unless he dies.



What do you mean here? That a person with a bloodline of 60 puts 1 point

in a magical sword and still has a bloodline of now 59+1 for the purpose

of bloodline abilitys just not for RP collection?



> So when the magic item is ruind the

blood returns. If the owner of the blood is dead, anyine can clame

the blood. as when you kill

a blooded one.

> Rigth, anyone can have his magic item created for him, the creator dont have to use his own

blood, any blood can be used.



Bad idea. This creates the same dillemma as in 2E when Constitution had

to be spent for casting the Permanency spell. Evil item creators will

abuse others, good/neutral are limited by the limitation.



And it would make "collecting" low-power scions with minor bloodlines

useful - hey I (the Gorgon

or any other powerful being) gain nothing if I try to commit bloodtheft

on these people with a low bloodline - but I can use them to fuel my

magic item production...

bye

Michael

[irdeggman]

I tend to agree with Michael here. In the BRCS-playtest Chap 8 requiring the use of bloodline score points for magic items was reserved for the exceptionally powerful abilities. I felt that this was a good way of distinguishing the more powerful blood-related special abilities from the other ones. There was a variant that allowed a spellcaster to sacrifice 1 point of blood score for 1,000 xp when making a magical item.

If it is desired to make Birthright a low-magic item setting then the simplest method is to just rasie the gp market value of the items. While getting gp is not usually a problem in Birthright, the corresonding increase in exp would help to some what slow down the mass production that could arise.

Now in 2nd ed there really weren&#39;t any mechanics introduced to limiti magic item production, other than what was put out in the BoR which listed items that were not available. There was an option listed that increased the gp and exp for items though, but in 3rd ed the two are inherently tied together so changing the gp value has a corresponding change in the exp cost of an item.

[geeman]

At 05:38 PM 10/17/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



> I tend to agree with Michael here. In the BRCS-playtest Chap 8

> requiring the use of bloodline score points for magic items was reserved

> for the exceptionally powerful abilities. I felt that this was a good

> way of distinguishing the more powerful blood-related special abilities

> from the other ones. There was a variant that allowed a spellcaster to

> sacrifice 1 point of blood score for 1,000 xp when making a magical item.



Because bloodline score and RP are interchangeable (or at least one can

spend RP to raise bloodline score) what winds up happening if one is

required to spend a bloodline score point to create magic items or to avoid

losing XP when doing so is that people with high bloodline scores wind up

getting penalized. That is, if two characters, one with a score of 10 and

another with a score of 30 create the exact same magic item the first can

spend 10 RP to get his score back while the second must spend 30 RP, so

using bloodline rather than RP winds up making it more costly for the more

powerful character to create items of equivalent power.



It`s better to just use RP directly. If one wants to have a function for

turning bloodline score into RP then that can work, but the connection to

RP should be closer.



Gary

[Osprey]

Because bloodline score and RP are interchangeable (or at least one can
spend RP to raise bloodline score) what winds up happening if one is
required to spend a bloodline score point to create magic items or to avoid
losing XP when doing so is that people with high bloodline scores wind up
getting penalized. That is, if two characters, one with a score of 10 and
another with a score of 30 create the exact same magic item the first can
spend 10 RP to get his score back while the second must spend 30 RP, so
using bloodline rather than RP winds up making it more costly for the more
powerful character to create items of equivalent power.

It`s better to just use RP directly. If one wants to have a function for
turning bloodline score into RP then that can work, but the connection to
RP should be closer.

Gary

Yes - this echoes a post I made earlier in this thread about RP vs. permanent bloodline loss.

Here&#39;s a possibility: require a permanent bloodline point be spent if substituting RP for XP, but grant the formerly mentioned exchange rate of 10:1 (with the new bloodline rules in the update). In other words, a regent mage with a bloodline score of 40 burns a point of bloodline when creating a magical staff. As that point of bloodline is worth 40 RP, he gains 400 XP to put into the creation of the item. Any excess XP/RP are lost.

I like this solution because it always requires a real sacrifice on the part of the creator, while still giving a nod towards strong bloodlines having more power (and thus equaling more XP). It also eliminates the problem of using a few RP at a time to completely substitute the cost of minor items without ever losing more than a portion of the regent&#39;s seasonal collection. Given that a regent can only increase his bloodline 2 times per year through RP (under optimal conditions, too&#33, this limits the amount of major items any articifer would crank out, and thus the overall number of such items likely to be found in the world or to be produced by PC articifers.

How does this work for a decent variant to be published?

-Osprey