New Costs For Magic Item Creation

[Osprey]

Hey, waddya' know, I'm not crazy after all! :blink: Thanks...

[Airgedok]

Doesnt the current rule set create a magic poor enviorment? In older versions of D&D you gained XP for creating a magic item and the only control was time and resources. HOWEVER 3x D&D has created the other far greater limiting factor and that is XP. It now cost you Xp to make weapons. It is akin to sacrificing part of your life force to make the magic item. I can see many a mage being very reluctant to give up their "life force" to make a magic item just to sell or just for the sake of a whim. As a player who plays wizards and only wizards I have been very very very relucant to build magic items for my party because the cost is xp, or rather thats the cost the is the limiting factor. When you have to give up your life force you are not likely to make many items.

A wizard is more powerful if it never makes a magic item (including scrolls) then if it does make magic items and sells them. There are many magic items that would make a wizard more powerful with them then without these would therefore be the more likely items created than teh ones that the creating class could not use. Ie a magic sword is likely more rare than a magic staff. A wizard who desire to increase in power and most wizards especially players suffer from hubris and a loath to give up their own personal power and thats what XP cost do you give up personal power to make an object of power. If you make lots of items you could be two or even three levels behind your party members and thats 1 or two spell levels. the differance from being able to cast 5th level spells at 10th level or 7th level spells at 13th level. Thats a huge gap in spell power that characters would be loath to give up just to create magic items for their party members (their closest friends). This also means that they have to give up more personal power in the form of feats. Every item creation feat is a metamagic feat or other feat a spell caster gives up. It is therefore a reasonable premiss that spellcasters both divine and arcane would NOT be likely to create magic items.

This wouldnot elinimate item creation but it does explain while there is a limited supply of magic items and not "special" reason for it. It is more nessesary to create a "special" rule to explain high magic worlds than low magic worlds given the current xp cost in item creation with the 3x edition rules.

This isnt a critism of the rules just an analysis of what xp item creation cost means. And that a rule to explain limited items isnt really required. RP used to create magic items is a rule that would create a world with more magic items because RP are a renuable resourse while xp is not. So a season's worth of RP spent on a item are renewed in one regant turn. That is a very very cheap cost compared to 1/4 or 1/2 a level worth of XP since you cant regain those xp by waiting a single turn. You have to actually go and adventure to gain more points. The difference may seem trivial of surface glance but its a major difference in practice. If two regeants created magic items and one used XP and another RP you would find the regant that spent RP in a far stronger position all things being equal.

Just wanted to present a view point that shows that there is no reason to try to explain why items are rare.

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

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> irdeggman wrote:

> > This, too, is an interesting way to explain the rarity of artifacts. It might be good to replace the xp cost with RP cost (BRCS suggests 1 RP per 10 xp as a variant).

> The other good thing about having blooded scions be the only ones capable of magic item creation is that it limits both clerics and mages. What seems to be frequently forgotten is that clerics can also create magic items as easily as mages, and in Cerilia they are far more numerous than true mages.

> -Osprey [/QUOTE]

> Actually the variant was 1 point of bloodline score to 1000 xp.

> I, personally, am very much against using RP to magic item creation. My reasoning on this is

>that it is supposed to "cost" the creator something that he had gained due to risk,

>(i.e., exp). RP is like gaining interest, the regent doesn`t really have to risk anything in order

> to gain it. Bloodline score on the ohter hand is something that is

> very significant and dear to al scions.



As far as I remember RP could be earned just like XP for heroic deeds.

The introduction in "King of the Giantdowns" assumes this as PC´s would

adventure there and eventually make a bid for the crown.



And from a logical point of view what has been said in an earlier thread

if failure in certain actions leads to a minor/major/great loss of RP

then it should lead to a gain in RP when said action turn out successfull.



RP earned in this manner would just be like XP and not only like an

effortless "interest" on bloodline score.



If however regents in your campaign earn enough RP that after having

dealt with the problems of all rulers (evil neighbours, expanding their

own holdings...) and saving some RP to at some time actually increase

their bloodline, they STILL have more than enough RP that spending some

on magic item is no loss at all, then perhaps are they facing not enough

challenges to their rule?

bye

Michael

[ConjurerDragon]

Airgedok schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...ST&f=36&t=2006

>> Airgedok wrote:

> Doesnt the current rule set create a magic poor enviorment? In older versions of D&D you

> gained XP for creating a magic item and the only control was time and

resources.



No, for permanent magic items the wizard had to sacrifice 1 point of

Constitution (for casting the 2E "permanency" spell). A pretty hefty

requirement for non-evil wizards (the evil ones would just magic jar a

victim and then cast the permanency) ;-)



> HOWEVER 3x D&D has created the other far greater limiting factor

and that is XP. It now

> cost you Xp to make weapons. It is akin to sacrificing part of your

life force to make the

>magic item. I can see many a mage being very reluctant to give up

their "life force"

> to make a magic item just to sell or just for the sake of a whim.



The *desired* result is that there are less weapons and that those that

are made are more expensive. Naturally any wizard will be reluctant to

give up part of his next level and more personal power for creating a

long sword +1 for his fighter party member if not paid a hefty amount of

gold.



>As a player who plays wizards and only wizards I have been very very very relucant to build

> magic items for my party because the cost is xp, or rather thats the

cost the is the limiting

> factor. When you have to

>give up your life force you are not likely to make many items.



Except when you

a) are offered HUGE amounts of gold that make you forget the loss -

mmmh: The Baron of Ghoere offers 10 GB and the title of Viscount to the

wizard who creates a magical sword for his son and heir?

b) you NEED the money, else you could not buy the ingredients for some

of your spells or you would lack the money for your next research object

- sorry fellow partymembers I just can´t cast [insert spell with

expensive component] because I lacked the gold to buy ingredients ;-)



bye

Michael

[irdeggman]

Michael you do have a point about earning RP due to actions, but this is really insubtantial compared to what is being earned by just having a holding. The typical RP awards are usually 1 or 2 RP (up or down) while the regent usually earns close to his max blood score (2nd ed version) due to various holdings in a season. That was what Iwas referring to when I said I preferred the exchange being blood score for exp instead of RP for exp. Also blood score for exp would be much more easily portable to those who don't run a domain based game.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by The Jew@Oct 11 2003, 12:51 PM
The BRCS gives a variant for RP use in the creation of magic item in Chapter 3 on page 57. The RP:xp ratio is 1:10. It also takes a month long ritual in addition to the normal item creation time.

Yup you are correct it is right there in Chap 3. It shouldn't have been and was supposed to have been removed before putting out the BRCS for playtesting, since all of the magic item creation info was supposed to be relegated to Chap 8.

Use the Chap 8 info instead.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Osprey@Oct 11 2003, 09:22 AM

While we're on it, there's some need for clarification. On p. 152 of the BRCS it says:

The exchange rate is 1000 experience points for every point of bloodline score so sacrificed.* This sacrifice can only be used once per item or spell.

Once per item, yet multiple bloodline points may be spent? There seems to be a contradiction here. Magical item creation is a continuous process, so why would anyone do it more than once?

-Osprey

Actually a spellcaster can increase the + to an item or add other properties by adding to it after it was originally created, hence there really isn't an inconsistancy in the BRCS.


This specifically applies to weapons and armors.

[void]

I like the idea that creating magic items takes 1rp in addition to the regular costs. Since there are only a handful of true wizards, this would explain the rarity of magic items from the arcane point of view, but Anuire is lousy with blooded clerics, so I don't see why there isnt actually a plethora of magic items in Birthright. Since there are lots of militant religions, you'd think the clerics would be pumping them out to give their side the advantage.

[The Jew]

from airgedok
>If you make lots of items you could be two or even three levels behind your >party members and thats 1 or two spell levels. the differance from being able >to cast 5th level spells at 10th level or 7th level spells at 13th level.

I think you are taking a little to extreme a view of magic item creation. To begin with, the experience lost from from magic item creation to be 10th rather than 13th level would be 33,000. That is enough to make 825,000 gp worth of items. By the book, a 13th level character has 110,000 gp worth of equipment. I think that level of creation would be rare, but might actually be worth it if a magic user wanted to try. A more realistic example would be a 13th level magic user spending 6,000 experience to create 150,000 gp worth of items. They might sell off 50,000 of it to help cover the cost of creation, which explains the number of swords and armour, along with the fact that clerics fight with swords and armour and can of course create them. To put it into perspective lets see what a wizard could make with that remaining 100,000 gp:

robe of protection +2
amulet of natural armour +2
cloak of resistance +3
+4 to intelligence
+2 constitution
+2 dexterity
+10 administrate
+5 know (arcana)
+5 spellcraft
+5 concentration
+10 warcraft
bag of holding II
circlet of persuasion
boots of speed

This is by 3.5e prices and only requires the wonderous item feat. I personally think it would be well worth it and lead to magic items being more common.

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...ST&f=36&t=2006

>

> irdeggman wrote:

> Michael you do have a point about earning RP due to actions, but this is really insubtantial

compared to what is being earned by just having a holding. The typical

RP awards are usually 1

or 2 RP (up or down) while the regent usually earns close to his max

blood score (2nd ed

version) due to various holdings in a season. That was what Iwas

referring to when I said I

preferred the exchange being blood score for exp instead of RP for exp.

Also blood score for exp

would be much more easily portable to those who don`t run a domain

based game.



As you mention that:

Where are those people that whine constantly about that blooded scions

need to be balanced against unblooded adventurers, because "many people"

want to play an unblooded adventurer in the Birthright setting? Hey,

here is a suggestion that banishes you from creating magic items ;-)



Perhaps another +1 ECL to blooded scions because unblooded can´t create

magic items?



But about RP: Again you can´t only show how much RP one player earns -

the higher his RP income, the higher his bloodline, the higher the

challenges his rule will/ought to face - in the end RP after facing that

challenges and saving some for enhancing bloodline should always be

scarce and not readily available.

bye

Michael