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  1. #41
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    Gary schrieb:

    > At 05:38 PM 10/17/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:

    >> I tend to agree with Michael here. In the BRCS-playtest Chap 8

    >> requiring the use of bloodline score points for magic items was reserved

    >> for the exceptionally powerful abilities. I felt that this was a good

    >> way of distinguishing the more powerful blood-related special abilities

    >> from the other ones. There was a variant that allowed a spellcaster to

    >> sacrifice 1 point of blood score for 1,000 xp when making a magical item.

    >

    > Because bloodline score and RP are interchangeable (or at least one can

    > spend RP to raise bloodline score) what winds up happening if one is

    > required to spend a bloodline score point to create magic items or to avoid

    > losing XP when doing so is that people with high bloodline scores wind up

    > getting penalized. That is, if two characters, one with a score of 10 and

    > another with a score of 30 create the exact same magic item the first can

    > spend 10 RP to get his score back while the second must spend 30 RP, so

    > using bloodline rather than RP winds up making it more costly for the more

    > powerful character to create items of equivalent power.

    >

    > It`s better to just use RP directly. If one wants to have a function for

    > turning bloodline score into RP then that can work, but the connection to

    > RP should be closer.

    > Gary



    I disagree here. Yes, RP and bloodline are somewhat interchangeable, as

    one can spend the one and raise the other. And yes, someone with a high

    bloodline who sacrifices 1 point of bloodline sacrifices more virtual RP

    than a character with a low bloodline, as the one with the low bloodline

    needs less RP to raise it again.



    However the regent with a high bloodline usually reigns a larger realm

    and collects RP more easily than the regent with low RP which balances

    the difference in "virtual RP" out for the one point of bloodline.



    It IS a problem for those who play BR only on the adventure level and

    are not regents, as those earn no RP through holdings.

    bye

    Michael

  2. #42
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    I agree with Michael. Bloodline points and RP are not interchangeable. Never have been and as written in the BRCS are not.

    In an adventure only level campaign this assumption doesn't not work, since characters have bloodlines but don't earn RP since they aren't regents.

    While a regent can convert his RP into a bloodscore increase it is not very often (twice a year at the most) and even then he has to pretty much ignore domain actions in order to do this.

    As I have pointed out many times, and no one has stated anything to contrary, RP is like interest. A regent really doesn't have to do anything in order to earn it. All he has to do is have a holding, there is no "risk" associated with this. There may be with doing other domain actions that could affect his holding, but that usually revolves around someone else's actions and not his.

    The exp cost in creating magic items is a reflection of some person investment and sacrifice that a character places into the item. These are gained by surviving risks or challenges placed in the character's path along his way. Again, RP collection really involves no sacrifice of things gained by overcoming challenges of this type.

    Another thing to reflect on is that if RP usage is done instead of blood score then this will increase the likelihood of magic items since there are more RPs floating around than blood score.

    Wizards don't generally have a lot to do with their RP so theymight as well spend them on creating magic items, whereas if they had to sacrifice their blood score that would be something that would require real though as to was it worth it.
    Duane Eggert

  3. #43
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 04:11 PM 10/19/2003 +0200, Michael Romes wrote:



    >>Because bloodline score and RP are interchangeable (or at least one can

    >>spend RP to raise bloodline score) what winds up happening if one is

    >>required to spend a bloodline score point to create magic items or to avoid

    >>losing XP when doing so is that people with high bloodline scores wind up

    >>getting penalized. That is, if two characters, one with a score of 10 and

    >>another with a score of 30 create the exact same magic item the first can

    >>spend 10 RP to get his score back while the second must spend 30 RP, so

    >>using bloodline rather than RP winds up making it more costly for the more

    >>powerful character to create items of equivalent power.

    >

    >I disagree here. Yes, RP and bloodline are somewhat interchangeable, as

    >one can spend the one and raise the other. And yes, someone with a high

    >bloodline who sacrifices 1 point of bloodline sacrifices more virtual RP

    >than a character with a low bloodline, as the one with the low bloodline

    >needs less RP to raise it again.

    >

    >However the regent with a high bloodline usually reigns a larger realm

    >and collects RP more easily than the regent with low RP which balances

    >the difference in "virtual RP" out for the one point of bloodline.



    I think we are better off using ECL, CR and EL as the balancing factor for

    having a high bloodline score and ruling a more powerful domain than trying

    to account for the situation in the magic item creation rules. Those are

    just more ready tools and are already set up for that purpose.



    Aside from that, however, it just strikes me as being an inaccurate

    portrayal of bloodline in that higher bloodline scores seem to represent a

    progressive power level. That is, bloodline isn`t a "flat" progression of

    power--much like character levels aren`t. There is the weird, "binary"

    math of D&D`s EL system (two CR 1 monsters equals an EL 2 encounter, four

    CR 1 monsters equals an EL 3 encounter, etc.) that illustrates how

    character levels aren`t all equal. The game assumes that the 3rd character

    level is "worth" twice as many CR 1 encounters as the 1st and

    2nd. Similarly, bloodline is worth more at higher scores. The progression

    isn`t quite "binary" like EL, so the progression is less obvious, but it is

    there if one compares the utility of major and great blood abilities with

    minor ones, and does a little analysis of the effects of having a higher

    bloodline score in relation to the RP spent to get there and the ECL of

    bloodline. (It helps to use decimal values for such a comparison.) Also,

    characters with higher bloodline scores represent a scaling up power system

    if one considers the math involved in acquiring a bloodline

    randomly. Higher bloodlines being demonstrably more difficult to achieve.



    Thematically higher bloodline scores represent a powering up scale on a

    sort of progression to godhood. That doesn`t mean that all scions are on

    the path to ascension, but they do exist on a "divine scale" where

    bloodline score is the numerical value that represents their progress on

    such a scale. My point in bringing that up is just to illustrate that both

    game mechanically and thematically, the 1 point of bloodline strength from

    a character with a higher bloodline score represents a greater expenditure

    of power.



    >It IS a problem for those who play BR only on the adventure level and are

    >not regents, as those earn no RP through holdings.



    That`s a good point too.



    Gary

  4. #44
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    Osprey schrieb:

    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

    > You can view the entire thread at:

    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...ST&f=36&t=2006

    > Osprey wrote:

    >
    Because bloodline score and RP are interchangeable (or at least one can

    > spend RP to raise bloodline score) what winds up happening if one is

    > required to spend a bloodline score point to create magic items or to avoid

    > losing XP when doing so is that people with high bloodline scores wind up

    > getting penalized. That is, if two characters, one with a score of 10 and

    > another with a score of 30 create the exact same magic item the first can

    > spend 10 RP to get his score back while the second must spend 30 RP, so

    > using bloodline rather than RP winds up making it more costly for the more

    > powerful character to create items of equivalent power.

    > It`s better to just use RP directly. If one wants to have a function for

    > turning bloodline score into RP then that can work, but the connection to

    > RP should be closer.

    > Gary

    >
    > Yes - this echoes a post I made earlier in this thread about RP vs. permanent bloodline loss.

    > Here`s a possibility: require a permanent bloodline point be spent if substituting RP for XP, but grant the formerly mentioned exchange rate of 10:1 (with the new bloodline rules in the update). In other words, a regent mage with a bloodline score of 40 burns a point of bloodline when creating a magical staff. As that point of bloodline is worth 40 RP, he gains 400 XP to put into the creation of the item. Any excess XP/RP are lost.

    > I like this solution because it always requires a real sacrifice on the part of the creator, while still giving a nod towards strong bloodlines having more power (and thus equaling more XP). It also eliminates the problem of using a few RP at a time to completely substitute the cost of minor items without ever losing more than a portion of the regent`s seasonal collection. Given that a regent can only increase his bloodline 2 times per year through RP (under optimal conditions, too!), this limits the amount of major items any articifer would crank out, and thus the overall number of such items likely to be found in the world or to be produced by PC articifers.

    > How does this work for a decent variant to be published?

    > -Osprey



    Something slightly similar would be the temporary or semi-permanent

    sacrifice of "a drop of blood" = losing X Hitpoints. Either the weak

    version in which the hitpoints heal normally, or the harder limitation

    in which they don´t heal and can´t be healed by spells, but by using the

    training action to raise the hitpoints agin (burning actions for a

    regent on the domain level).



    The "Blood Magus" from Tome&Blood for example can use blood (=

    inflicting a hitpointloss on himself) to substitute Components for

    spells (1-50 gp needs 5 Hitpoints, 51-300 needs 11, 301-750 gp needs 17

    and 750+ needs 23 Hitpoints). It´s a special ability called "Blood

    Component" and he gets it from the 1st level of this prestige class.

    bye

    Michael

  5. #45
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    irdeggman schrieb:

    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

    > You can view the entire thread at:

    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...ST&f=36&t=2006

    > irdeggman wrote:

    > I agree with Michael. Bloodline points and RP are not interchangeable. Never have been

    and as written in the BRCS are not.



    Actually I agreed in that point with Gary THAT bloodline and RP are

    somewhat interchangeable, as you can use RP to raise your bloodline

    score and can lose bloodline points if by bad rule or failed major

    actions you lose enough RP to lower your RP number below 0.



    > In an adventure only level campaign this assumption doesn`t not work, since characters have

    bloodlines but don`t earn RP since they aren`t regents.



    There is an optional? rule that adventurers/scions can earn RP similar

    to XP. In the 2E material this is mentioned in several places, for

    example in King of the Giantdowns and in the Book of Regency - the

    magical "Bloodstone Rings" are specifically mentioned in that you can

    store RP gained in this way to use them for actions even if you have no

    holdings.



    > While a regent can convert his RP into a bloodscore increase it is not very often (twice a

    year at the most) and even then he has to pretty much ignore domain

    actions in order to do

    this.

    > As I have pointed out many times, and no one has stated anything to contrary, RP is like

    interest. A regent really doesn`t have to do anything in order to earn

    it. All he has to do is

    have a holding, there is no "risk" associated with this.



    The risk is not in earning the RP once you have a bloodline and holdings

    to collect RP - the risks are in aquiring maintaining a high bloodline

    (without being bloodthefted, assasinated) and aquiring and maintaining

    or expanding your realm. Both numbers are in constant danger by random

    events and other players or NPC´s.







    > Another thing to reflect on is that if RP usage is done instead of blood score then this will increase the likelihood of magic items since there are more RPs floating around than blood score.

    > Wizards don`t generally have a lot to do with their RP so theymight as well spend them on

    creating magic items, whereas if they had to sacrifice their blood score

    that would be

    something that would require real though as to was it worth it.



    It seems I played in the wrong games - when I played a wizard in

    Morgramens Crown of Glory II I never had too much RP. And generally I

    could have needed more than I had. Casting Realm spells alone burns RP

    fast (summon 3 Stonecrown Ogre units for example). And wizards need to

    create and rule their holdings just like anyone else.

    bye

    Michael

  6. #46
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    > Another thing to reflect on is that if RP usage is done instead of blood score then this will increase the likelihood of magic items since there are more RPs floating around than blood score.
    > Wizards don`t generally have a lot to do with their RP so theymight as well spend them on
    creating magic items, whereas if they had to sacrifice their blood score
    that would be
    something that would require real though as to was it worth it. [Irdeggman]

    It seems I played in the wrong games - when I played a wizard in
    Morgramens Crown of Glory II I never had too much RP. And generally I
    could have needed more than I had. Casting Realm spells alone burns RP
    fast (summon 3 Stonecrown Ogre units for example). And wizards need to
    create and rule their holdings just like anyone else.
    bye
    Michael
    I completely agree with that - I find wizards more desperate for RP than just about any other regent in my campaigns. In part this is because everything they do requires RP, from creating/ruling/contesting source holdings, to casting realm spells, to raising bloodline. And if they don't have a nice healthy regular donation of GB from a wealthy regent, they're often burning up those "surplus" RP on the Alchemy realm spell in order to be able to continue any regent activity at all. Even with a few high level source holdings and the virtual guild income that creates (and I'm glad for this addition, don't get me wrong&#33, that usually amounts to a mere trickle of gold each season.

    Finally, throw in the fact that wizards are often struggling to find enough sources to fuel a very large supply of RP in the first place, unless they're lucky enough to be in a low-civilization, source-rich area. But in those places, they're often competing with other wizards, sometimes very powerful ones. And competition drains RP like nothing else can!

    As the game progresses, and wizards start reaching the levels where they can start to create more potent magic items, the landed regents are often doing a good job of ruling up their provinces. And this means even less RP for the wizards, who gain levels but often lose or have to fight hard to maintain high levels of regency.

    So in the end, I don't think using RP as a measure of power is as unbalancing as has been suggested. It's never "free." Those sources/holdings were often fought for, fought over again, and defended; sure, a portion are sometimes inherited in some campaigns, but those RP are so often spent holding on to what the regents already have, and if they want to grow are certainly going to be burnt trying to expand. Using RP/bloodline to make magic items is very definitely a tradeoff for regents, not "free power" in any sense.

    It also comes down to a personal preference in the campaign setting. To me, RP and bloodline DO equal power, and a kind of power that seems ideal for focusing into magic of any sort. Heck, just having a bloodline gives ambient divine powers, and the more potent one's blood, the more and stronger powers one can have. Now doesn't it make sense that those more potent bloodlines would have more potent energy and power if infused into the crafting of artifacts?

    -Osprey

  7. #47
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    I dont like petty magic items.

    here Im talking about hig magic items, or even clos to minor articacts.
    thees items sould be of epich type.

    I want the ones in game to be real powerfull wit ther own characters, purpos, path, story, and over all, spesial abilitys.

    Now a item will requier a perent. there are 2 or more parents to a powerfull item.

    parent 1. The Xp parent, the creator, the mother.
    parent 2. The blood parent, the donor, the father.

    other parents
    thows donating there lifeblodd. sacrifyses for vitual xp (see book of vile darkness)


    The item now has a blodd score and xp as whent into creating it.

    the character of the blodd lets say Reynir
    ... the characteristics of Reynir

    the character of the father, and his will, will become the will of the item, never chansing, it will nothing else but this.
    Now the item may corupte and sacrifice all thet the father loved, but this will is holy to the item, and it will do what it can to obtain

    it.

    the mother of the item, the creator, the mage, his flwas will be intergerd into the item, if the mother has a weekness, the item will have

    thet weekness as well.

    now the item has lodes of Ego of its own. and could dominate, or will not to benifit thows thet are trying to do agenst its wills.

    thees items can be the most tvisted creations. but if hold by anyone working in the spirit the item likes, he will fore sure benifit from

    the item,

    Yes, I would rule thet if you distroy the item, you will be in for some blood going your way,


    I can even see a seremony where the mage has colected lodes of items for the purpose of creating his wery own "staff of the magi" But the

    wills of the items he uses will not go away, and a staf of the magi creaited in this fasion will have a wery tvisted mind.


    If the former owner of Blood is present when a item is distroyed, he will go back up to the level of blood he was at the creation of the

    level, if he is lower, unless he is even lower then when he gave to the item, then only as much as the item is worth.

    any Xp used creaiting the item are lost when it is destroed.

    I would rule thet all items must use thees rules. Unless he has this feat

    feat: Make low power items.
    this feat is only awailable if the chatacter has encounterd a low power item.
    and done a wery expensive studys taking more then 100 years. (or Dm opinions)
    (usualy only few elves have this feat)


    whit this feat the mage can create items for only its base cost, with no intelegents what so ever.
    And dos not need any blood power to fule the item.

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