Battle Magic and Priests

[Lord Eldred]

I like the rulebook define battle spells as any spell that has an effect on a large number of people. Thus I think any powerful cleric that has spells that can have an effect on the masses can cast battle magic. I think I have and in fact I have stated this before.

My last post was refering to the post from the Citidel. He thinks it is abusive to gather the clergy and cast spells. I don't understand why.

[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

I've interpreted battle spells to be different from large area of effect spells. Battle spells are spells that normally can't affect an entire unit, but have been altered to encompass one or more. A fireball may be able to affect an entire unit by itself, slightly damaging it. But a Battle Fireball would be a huge fireball with about the same damage stats as a normal one.

[Lord Eldred]

On what grounds do you make that interpretation? I don't have a problem with you altering spells to get a larger effect but on what grounds do you argue they must be altered to be used in battle? In addition how many of these altered spells do you get and how does that work? And why wouldn't Haelyn give these altered spells to his priests?

[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

Maybe I'm confused on the examples given in the book of Magecraft.

Quote: (from the Book of Magecraft, pp. 98)

"Using the research action during a domain turn, wizards and magicians can create new battle spells by converting existing conventional spells."

End Quote.

That gives me the idea that not all battle spells are 'normal' spells. The book also gives me the idea that it is only usable in battle:

"If the Wizard succeds in his conversion attempt, he has a new spell in his spellbook--the battle spell version of the conventional spell he had before. He memorizes the spell in the same way, but he can cast it only in battle situations." (Magecraft 98)

That seems to say that there are spells that are large area spells and then there are battle-specific spells (normally large spells don't require the spell to be cast only in battle).

Why is a God going to spend his time on spell research (or contemplation or whatever) so that his priests can get for free what wizards must spend resources on?

I think that these special conversions should be limited to wizards. Priests have a War Sphere (which is easily converted to 3E), Quest spells, Realm Spells, Regular spells, popular support (of some form), and better fighting characteristics. Wizards get Realms spells, Battle Spells, and Normal Spells. Fair balance, in my opinion, since the Priests actions are limited by an ethos and the spells are less offensive in nature.

In Morgramen's pbem, he goes one step further and actually requires blood to cast battle spells (and at least some regency in storage even). I personally like this approach. It actually makes battle-wizards rarer, and allows those regents that do employ them a real edge. Though Morg doesn't allow any priestly battlemagic, I believe this approach for wizards plus allowing priests the normal spells they have that are battle useful, would make priests more common in armies. Further, this helps explain why Elves had trouble against human priests back in the day, the Priests had War spells while the elves did not have battle spells at all.

[Green Knight]

Sure. Clerics have the ability to cast realm spells. So if wizards use battle magic in your campaign, clerics should too. Otherwise no.

[centAUr]

Just play an Elven kindom and you won't need to bother with clerics ;)

Ok, let's get serious. It is a good think to keep Priests happy since they are created to make rebelions(apart from realm spells). A happy priest can be great help, but the best is a vassal priest(and stupid enough to be happy for that). But if the realm has economical problems they should pay too. If they do it through tributes better, if they don't then tax them as much as possible. On the other hand a trade service(as per book of regency) can do the job and keep them all happy. Everything can be done better with diplomacy.

Anyway, PUT THEM TAXES, after all they earn money for doing nothing but rebelions and contesting each other :P
Or better expell them, as by the elven customs(elves are definetly more advanced).

[centAUr]

Just play an Elven kindom and you won't need to bother with clerics ;)
...
Or better expell them, as by the elven customs(elves are definetly more advanced).

Sorry guys, I messed up the threads :(

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel

Maybe I'm confused on the examples given in the book of Magecraft.

Quote: (from the Book of Magecraft, pp. 98)

"Using the research action during a domain turn, wizards and magicians can create new battle spells by converting existing conventional spells."

End Quote.

That gives me the idea that not all battle spells are 'normal' spells. The book also gives me the idea that it is only usable in battle:

"If the Wizard succeds in his conversion attempt, he has a new spell in his spellbook--the battle spell version of the conventional spell he had before. He memorizes the spell in the same way, but he can cast it only in battle situations." (Magecraft 98)

That seems to say that there are spells that are large area spells and then there are battle-specific spells (normally large spells don't require the spell to be cast only in battle).

I could see how this would confuse you but I think both are true. The key is that what you are quoting is to create NEW BATTLE SPELLS. All spells that have an affect normally on a large number of people are Battle spells that can already be used without having to convert the spell. However, if the spell does not normally have an effect on a large number of people it needs to be converted but the new spell can only be used in battle situations (personally I disagree but that is what the book says). Thus Clerics can use all spells that currently affect a large number of people as battle spells without having to do the conversion.

Orginally posted by Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel
Why is a God going to spend his time on spell research (or contemplation or whatever) so that his priests can get for free what wizards must spend resources on?

Again I think you miss something. It wouldn't be the god that does the research, it would be the cleric. IF the cleric is able to think it up (with the right amount of research) then they would pray for their god to grant them that type of spell. I don't think it would be for free. I think some time and some resources would go into the process. And some special prayer time.

[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

I'm just thinking a division would make sense. Battle spells could be spells that have extremely long casting times and larger effects for their spell level. Other spells would just be normal.

Otherwise, I guess my idea of priests is that they are supposed to spend time dealing with the needs of worshippers. Wizards have more spare time for research because they aren't beholden to a church. What kind of research would a priest need to do to obtain a new spell? Doesn't seem like much, considering they don't have to come up with Arcane formulas, as many material components, or learn to shape the energy themselves, they merely ask and pray (I just don't see what exactly priestly spell research does, or why it exists). I didn't actually think that a god did any research, but I've always thought of clerical research as a joke. If a god wants to give better spells, then he/she probably would have done so already.

I'm not completely against priests getting special Battle Spells, I just feel that its a bit of a game balance issue. Wizards have little that a priest can't emulate (especially with Domains containing more attack magic than what used to be available to priests). Even the wish spell (which I don't like) has a priestly version now. However, a wizard can not emulate a priests martial skills very effectively, and cannot heal others in a manner that won't hurt himself.
Also, wizards don't have anything similar to Quest spells. In fact, people in general don't usually follow wizards, though priests can call upon the faithful. This leads me to believe that the classes are unbalanced.

Lastly, I've never said that Clerics shouldn't be able to use normal spells that affect large numbers of people. I just said that they shouldn't be called battle spells.

[Baragos]

A few spells come to my mind:

Bless - Prayer - Etc: These would influence one or more units, enhancing their combat abilities.
Ward-spells: These would hinder the enemy in some way.
Summoning-spells: These (obviously) would summon a "unit" of divine creatures. Imagine the priest who summons a host of einherin or a small number of celestials. Even "weak" celestials can take on a couple of hundred regular soldiers. Priests of Laerme would summon fire elementals, Eric's would call Nature's Allies, etc.
Healing-spells: Already Circle of Healing exists. It would be plausible to have one that could effect entire units at a time.

I think that the number of directly destructive spells should be kept at a minimum. I like the idea of a Flame Strike-battle spell, but priests are more supportive than destructive spell casters.

Baragos