New Class Options

[RaspK_FOG]

Remember when I said I found clerics to be too good? Well, here is my proposal for all of you who may agree. This is a variant that evens out spell progression for Paladin-like divine spellcasters and allows divine spellcasting levels to actually stack in order to determine spell acquisition.

On the following lines, the Holy Warriors (Paladins, and the like) get the 1st column, Priests (Clerics, and the like) get the 2nd column, and Mystics get the 3rd column. A different style could be implemented for Druids and Rangers, but I have not worked it out just now. If you are interested in the Mystic, I will be posting him soon (not a DragonLance Mystic, of which I had not the time to take a look, but my own).

Alternative No.1

Level  0 1 2 3 4    0 1 2 3 4 5 6  0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
-------------------------------------------------------------------
1    0 - - - -    2 - - - - - -  3 1 - - - - - - - -
2    0 - - - -    3 0 - - - - -  4 2 - - - - - - - -
3    1 - - - -    3 1 - - - - -  4 2 1 - - - - - - -
4    1 - - - -    3 2 0 - - - -  4 3 2 - - - - - - -
5    1 0 - - -    3 3 1 - - - -  4 3 2 1 - - - - - -
6    1 0 - - -    3 3 2 - - - -  4 3 3 2 - - - - - -
7    1 1 - - -    3 3 2 0 - - -  4 4 3 2 1 - - - - -
8    1 1 - - -    3 3 3 1 - - -  4 4 3 3 2 - - - - -
9    1 1 0 - -    3 3 3 2 - - -  4 4 4 3 2 1 - - - -
10   1 1 0 - -    3 3 3 2 0 - -  4 4 4 3 3 2 - - - -
11   2 1 1 - -    3 3 3 3 1 - -  4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - - -
12   2 1 1 - -    3 3 3 3 2 - -  4 4 4 4 3 3 2 - - -
13   2 2 1 0 -    3 3 3 3 2 0 -  4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - -
14   2 2 1 1 -    4 3 3 3 3 1 -  4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 - -
15   2 2 2 1 -    4 4 3 3 3 2 -  4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 -
16   3 2 2 1 -    4 4 4 3 3 2 0  4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 -
17   3 3 2 2 0    4 4 4 4 3 3 1  4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
18   3 3 3 2 1    4 4 4 4 4 3 2  4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
19   3 3 3 3 2    4 4 4 4 4 4 3  4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3
20   3 3 3 3 3    4 4 4 4 4 4 4  4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4

Holy Warriors, Priests, and Mystics all cast divine spells from the Cleric Spell list in a sort of pooled faith. If a character does not multiclass, he can simply use the above tables. If he does, however, his spell progression is that of the class with the more available spell levels. To come up with a character's spellcasting ability, sum up the fractional levels produced by the following formulas + 1.

Each level above 1st equals:
============================
Holy Warriors:	3/12 of a new step in spell progression.
Priests:	4/12 of a new step in spell progression.
Mystics:	6/12 of a new step in spell progression.

[Airgedok]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon@Oct 13 2003, 07:13 PM
Gary Foss schrieb:

> Airgedok writes:

>> An elf that was raise in a human temple could very well become a

>> priest to a human god if such an elf desired to worship the god

>> of its "parents" and the god wanted to accept teh elf

>> as its servant.

> While I agree with the above interpretation I think it should be noted that

> in the original materials the language is somewhat vague on whether an elf

> could actually take levels in a priestly class. There is text in some of

> the supplements to support that interpretation, but it really just says

> that

> a elves are free to worship gods if they choose to do so as a sort of

> "don`t

> ask, don`t tell" policy in the elven culture, but that doesn`t really mean

> that an elf can take levels as a cleric or priest.

> Gary



If an sidhelien really believes in a god and therefore choses not only

to worship this god but to become a cleric of that god - how can he stay

among his own people remaining silent about his god?



Spreading the word about your god is one of the dutys of most priests

and the elf would be in a constant contradiction between his dutys to

his new god and his people.



So an elf who worships a god - silently is one thing in elven realms.

But elven clerics can´t exist in elven realms in my opinion.

bye

Michael

Umm you make an assumption that i think you shouldnt. You assume that these religions are evangelical, like Islam or christianity they try to increase membership through conversion. But what about other religions like judism or hinduism that are not evangelical? It is very easy to see an elf being a priest much like a buddest monk and not trying to convert anyone.

What does a cleric mean and can a single definition be tolerable? Wouldnt it be more accurate to ask what does a cleric of [blank] mean?

I dont know how human gods would react to an elven worshipper asking to join his church but I ask this "IF and this is a the key word IF a god accepted a sidhe worshipper into his priesthood is their any reason why an elf couldnt be a cleric? This is a question about teh spirit of teh rules within 3e and how that spirit effects and is effected by Birthright. I dont know the answer. Or I'm not 100% sure what teh answear is but this is the place to hash these concepts out.

Whats more important the spirit of Birthright or the spirit of 3e? If you ignore the spirit of birthright you lose that which makes that wold compelling but if you ignore the spirit of 3e you lose that which make 3e so much better a rule set that 2e (at least to the vast majority of people I realise that many feal the opposite but then again this isnt for them as they'll just play the original).

I dislike racial prohibition rules and even class prohibition rules that were the standard of the 2e rules like no dwarven wizards or wizards can use swords. I find the current system far better. Hell if i had a sidhe regent taht wanted to becoe a cleric I'd let him try... the character would have to convince me and through me teh god that the elf was actually a servent of the god and not just trying to gain a source of power. Also any sidhe that tries to bring that religion to his Elven subjects will likely end up an Ex-regant and in turn an Ex-sidhe.

But on an adventure level game I could well see an sidhe being converted and joining the priesthood. The difference in the rule's spirit is that their are cultural barriers not racial barriers. Much like the barriers woman face they are not racial but cultural. I find those types of rules aceptable but I find racial rules totaly uncacceptable.

[Airgedok]

Just want to be clear on my position I'm all for creating new classes so long as no race is excluded from any class including elves. That being said I'm all for cultural concequences for various classes. i could see elves viewing any elven cleric as they would a necomancer. Perhaps its a subtle differance to some but for me its an important issue.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Airgedok@Oct 14 2003, 09:23 PM
Just want to be clear on my position I'm all for creating new classes so long as no race is excluded from any class including elves. That being said I'm all for cultural concequences for various classes. i could see elves viewing any elven cleric as they would a necomancer. Perhaps its a subtle differance to some but for me its an important issue.

It is important to review the campaign setting definition material for Birthright. One of the things that separates it from other settings is the fact that there are no elven gods and that elves can't (normally) be clerics (or priests in 2nd ed). This is an important aspect that needs to always be kept in mind.



Atlas of Cerilia pg 6 “Still, the elves were pushed back year after year because of an element they had never encountered – priestly magic. The elves could easily call upon the forces inherent in the wood and water, field and air, but had never worshipped deities and thus, could not even begin to understand this new source of power. The human priests were the deciding factor against the elves’ expertise in magic and combat; the old gods favored humans to such an extent that the elves found themselves practically powerless.”

Birthright Rule Book (BRRB) pg 5 Table 3: Racial Level Limits {elves can’t be priests of any level}.

BRRB pg 11 Priest – races allowed; dwarf, half-elf, halfling, human {no elves}

PS Tuarhievel pg 19 “To the elves, spiritual development is the responsibility of the individual. The path an elf takes is a decision that only he or she can make. So strong is this belief that if an elf chooses to worship one of the human gods, so be it. The only restriction placed on such an individual is that of silence while within elven lands.”

While on the surface the section from the Tuarhievel PS seems to contradict the other references, as Gary has pointed out it doesn’t talk about levels as a priest. Being a worshipper of a god does not mean being a priest. This is somewhat outlined in the Book of Priestcraft in the composition of a temple holding and the various classes that are available in the typical holding. So all in all I would have to say that these are not contradictory statements in the 2nd Birthright books and that the original campaign setting material was pretty clear on elves not being priests.

[RaspK_FOG]

One thing I never quite understood and many people still seem reluctant to approach is the real meaning of being a cleric. Allow me to explain...

(Let's just say that nobles are not the standard BR nobles, just any class that plays that role well; I, for one, prefer the noble from The Wheel of Time to that of BR, but that's another thing entirely.)
For all we no, a priest can be anyone who is versed in the theological issues and background of his particular church and can actually preach about them to the masses, but does not have to (as a priest, his role is to perform ceremonies) . If we want to be honest, a bard/adept or noble/adept, and, of course, a noble or expert with few cleric levels would be able do the above. What really differentiates the aforementioned example is that a cleric (the word is greek, and means "one who preaches/one related to preaching") is exactly that part of the clergy which is assigned to drawing new believers to their church.
(In order to avoid being clobbered, I must agree that I gave my class the name cleric to avoid having them confused for standard D&D clerics.)

[RaspK_FOG]

Oh, Osprey, I don't want to be nagging or anything, but tell me, how did you like my idea for runic inscription? I would really like to know what's your opinion.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Oct 16 2003, 11:10 AM
One thing I never quite understood and many people still seem reluctant to approach is the real meaning of being a cleric. Allow me to explain...

(Let's just say that nobles are not the standard BR nobles, just any class that plays that role well; I, for one, prefer the noble from The Wheel of Time to that of BR, but that's another thing entirely.)
For all we no, a priest can be anyone who is versed in the theological issues and background of his particular church and can actually preach about them to the masses, but does not have to (as a priest, his role is to perform ceremonies) . If we want to be honest, a bard/adept or noble/adept, and, of course, a noble or expert with few cleric levels would be able do the above. What really differentiates the aforementioned example is that a cleric (the word is greek, and means "one who preaches/one related to preaching") is exactly that part of the clergy which is assigned to drawing new believers to their church.
(In order to avoid being clobbered, I must agree that I gave my class the name cleric to avoid having them confused for standard D&D clerics.)

While this is interesting it really has nothing to do with anything. What I mean is the meaning of the terms "priest" and "cleric" are defined by the context they are used in. In this case "priest" was defined by the 2nd ed TSR products and what being a priest entailed, the same with "cleric" and 3rd ed. What the roots of the words or their meaning in "real life" has nothing to do with how they are used in the fantasy game of D&D.

We cannot redefine what the core rules uses as meaning for these things without absolutely trashing the entire D&D system.

In none of the TSR/Wizards product definitions is a priest or cleric "required" to proslytize. Many people see that as the role of a priest/cleric but the way they are used in the core products does not support that belief. Also the "more choices" foundation of 3rd makes this sort of requirement rather in opposition to the very concept/preceipts of 3rd ed itself.

What this comes down to is a "house-rules" approach to what being a priest/cleric means and how a player should role-play one.

[irdeggman]

I like the concept of a rune master more as a prestige class than a replacement for a wizard. I would, however, be hesitant about introducing a prestige class that duplicates what can be done using the existing classes. There are class combos for dwarven artificers (from dragon magazine) that could very reasonably be used.

Some one earlier posted a reference as to how Dragonlance was handling the "sudden appearance" of dwarven wizards and thought that there should be some sort of explanation for this in Birthright. I don't really see the need to publish an explanation for the following reasons:

(1) Cerilian dwarves are very secretive about themselves and their clans so there could have always been wizards in the dwarven clans just that no outsiders knew about them.

(2) Sources in dwarven lands are not listed as being "owned" by anyone (at least as far as Baruk-Azhik goes). This could reflect that the "owner" is just not known. The various books listing who owns what holdings aren't necessarily supposed to be absolutly factual - otherwise there is no way to "surprise" players with a change in what was published.

(3) There are not that many dwarves and their numbers are shrinking due to their high casualties from their war with the Orogs. IMO this means that most dwarves don't have the time to focus on the study of arcane lore that typifies a wizard - they are too busy learning and using martial skills in their clans' defense.

[RaspK_FOG]

Concerning clergies: That's a point I cannot dismiss! Good one, Irdeggman!

As for the Arcane Strike feat, I noticed the bonuses to attack cannot go beyond your base attack bonus, but the bonus damage is dealt normally.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Oct 16 2003, 06:27 PM

As for the Arcane Strike feat, I noticed the bonuses to attack cannot go beyond your base attack bonus, but the bonus damage is dealt normally.

Help me out here, where is the Arcane Strike feat located? Maybe its just that "old" thing creeping up on me.