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  1. #91
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    I absolutely LOVE the should they/shouldn't they Elven cleric/druid character debate.

    What's interesting, at least to me, is that there were never any clerics in Birthright. All priests were specialty priests.

    pg. 11 Birthright Rulebook

    Every priest character in a Birthright campaign must choose one of the Cerilian powers and abide by the allowed weapons, armor, and spheres of access granted to priests of that deity. In some cases, these restrictions are similar to the standard abilities associated with the cleric class, but in other cases, priests may command unusual abilities.

    In 2nd edition Birthright the Druid was seen as a specialty priest, not it's own class.

    Even in 2nd edition standard AD&D it stated:

    Priests of differing mythoi often go by titles and names other than priest. A priest of nature, for example (especially one based on Western European tradition) could be called a druid.

    A quick check of the Book of Priestcraft shows under Clergy for Erik:

    Clergy: Priests (always CALLED druids)

    That's really all that had happened to the specialty priests of Erik. They were (and still are) called druids, and were given the standard druid abilities (with a few more).

    2e AD&D described a specialty-priest example that was so widely used it became its own sub-class, the druid (like a Ranger or Paladin were Warrior subclasses). All members of the druid class however had to be of neutral alignment, that was clear in the PHB as well as the Complete Book of Druids. Since the "druids" presented in the Birthright rulebook weren't of that alignment (and had fewer restrictions and more bonuses), they more than likely weren't supposed to be confused with the PHB druid (priest sub-class) that many people are saying (including me) should be opened up to whomever wants it.

    There are other examples of this kind of behavior exhibited by the original design team, like calling all Holy Warriors (also called Crusaders, if I recall correctly) Paladins. Then going on to say things like:

    Cuiraecen's paladins are chaotic good. They may specialize in a weapon following the rules for fighters.

    or

    Nesirie's paladins are always female. They share the granted powers of the priesthood, but cannot summon a warhorse.

    The paladin class was also pretty specific. All paladins had to be of Lawful Good alignment. However a Holy Warrior (of which the Paladin was an example) could be of any alignment and wasn't as heavily restricted.

    To the veterans on the list: I'm sorry for bringing up these points again.

    To the newbies on the list: This thread seems to flare up at least once a month in one topic or another.

    As always, if anyone can find, either in the Complete Guide to Paladins, the Complete Guide to Druids, or the PHB where these classes are allowed to be of a different alignment please let me know.

  2. #92
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by JanGunterssen@Mar 1 2004, 08:41 PM

    Regarding to elven clerics...
    Generally, the main effort for the clerics are regarding souls. The cleric's soul or the would be followers' ones. I asume that (as stated in the previous topic) the elves have not souls. I don't have anything against an elf taking priest levels, but I think he/she would be more interested in other's souls than his/her soul. And of course he will be seen as a foul among other elves... who doesn't have souls neither.

    Just some ideas
    That is not the 'main' reason for no elven clerics/priests in Cerilia, it is just one of the discussions as to why things may have worked the way they did.

    The main reason for no elven priests was that the elves in Cerilia have no gods. This is a specific difference in the Birthright campaign than in other campaign settings or the 'core' 2nd ed rules.

    As far as no souls for elves - this was a discussion/topic throughout 2nd ed, greater than Birthright specifically. IIRC using the raise dead or resurrection spells on elves was more difficult because of the 'no souls' for elves concept in 2nd ed.
    Duane Eggert

  3. #93
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by irdeggman@Mar 2 2004, 12:43 PM
    The main reason for no elven priests was that the elves in Cerilia have no gods. This is a specific difference in the Birthright campaign than in other campaign settings or the 'core' 2nd ed rules.
    And elvels NEED no gods. If you are immortal you simply need nothing what tells you, what happenes to your soul after your death...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  4. #94
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    And elvels NEED no gods. If you are immortal you simply need nothing what tells you, what happenes to your soul after your death...
    Well put, Ariadne. I think that really is the core of it all right there.

  5. #95
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Osprey@Feb 28 2004, 06:15 PM

    For instance, dwarves having strong wills and intense strength of character seems to be intrinsic to their racial character, yet there they are getting a Charisma penalty. It's obvious that this penalty was applied for social resons, yet it would also cross over to things like Use Magic Device and the variant Charisma as Bloodline modifier - which unfortunately don't translate as well with this type of racial modifier.

    Do we then make conditional modifiers in which this penalty doesn't apply? Or do we just suck it up and say "Oh well, the system can't be perfect?"
    Cerilian dwarves didn't have the Charisma penalty in 2nd ed that the core rules dwarves did, instead it was a Dex penalty. Same applies in the BRCS. Cerilian dwarves are different than the core rules ones, as are all of the races - it is one of the things that makes the campaign setting specific instead of just a layer on of the core rules. Hence no inherent penalty to Cha based skills and abilities.
    Duane Eggert

  6. #96
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    Indeed they should not. If you also read the description of the dwarves,

    not just the stats, you`ll find this interpretation reinforced.



    Cerilian dwarves are described as "strong, enduring folk who enjoy hard

    living and hard work. They are filled with an irrepressible store of

    good cheer and song". The section goes on to speak of things I don`t

    think fits well with a CHA penalty



    Cheers

    Bjørn



    -----Original Message-----

    From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion

    [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of irdeggman

    Sent: 2. mars 2004 17:30

    To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM

    Subject: Re: New Class Options [36#2000]



    This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

    You can view the entire thread at:

    http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...ST&f=36&t=2000



    irdeggman wrote:

    Originally posted by Osprey@Feb 28 2004, 06:15 PM
    [b]

    For instance, dwarves having strong wills and intense strength of

    character seems to be intrinsic to their racial character, yet there

    they are getting a Charisma penalty. It`s obvious that this penalty was

    applied for social resons, yet it would also cross over to things like

    Use Magic Device and the variant Charisma as Bloodline modifier - which

    unfortunately don`t translate as well with this type of racial modifier.



    Do we then make conditional modifiers in which this penalty doesn`t

    apply? Or do we just suck it up and say "Oh well, the system can`t

    be perfect?"
    Cerilian dwarves didn`t have the Charisma penalty in 2nd ed that the

    core rules dwarves did, instead it was a Dex penalty. Same applies in

    the BRCS. Cerilian dwarves are different than the core rules ones, as

    are all of the races - it is one of the things that makes the campaign

    setting specific instead of just a layer on of the core rules. Hence no

    inherent penalty to Cha based skills and abilities.



    ************************************************** **********************

    ****



    Birthright-l Archives:

    http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

  7. #97
    Junior Member JanGunterssen's Avatar
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    >>Cerilian dwarves are described as "strong, enduring folk who enjoy hard
    >>living and hard work. They are filled with an irrepressible store of
    >>good cheer and song". The section goes on to speak of things I don`t
    >>think fits well with a CHA penalty

    That's right! As close tied to the earth, Cerillian Dwarves are hard (remember they have dense bodies ability an so) and strong. So are they spirits. I can understand a Dextery penalty, while for me a Charisma penalty is just a "copy and paste" easy making rule from the PHB.

    I think they are some kind of earth guardians (quasi-earth-elementals) while I see the elves as "the-land-above-the-earth guardians". That would also explain why the shide and the dwarves never fight each other before the arrival of the human tribes.
    Dark is the night, for all...

  8. #98
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "Bjorn" <bjorn.sorgjerd@C2I.NET>

    Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 10:42 AM





    > Cerilian dwarves are described as "strong, enduring folk who

    > enjoy hard living and hard work. They are filled with an

    > irrepressible store of good cheer and song". The section goes

    > on to speak of things I don`t think fits well with a CHA penalty



    I don`t find any of this description has having anything to do with the CHA

    ability score. Perhaps if they inspired strength, endurance, good cheer,

    and a love of labor to others. Clearly Cerilians have embraced a fair

    amount of sidhe culture. What have they adopted of dwarven culture? Aside

    from Diirk Watershold (who was given a 15 CHA), I know of no dwarves who

    play a significant role in Anuirean politics (as opposed to their own

    insular communities). Indeed I think that the CHA penalty reflects that

    insularity. This may be a Tolkenesque reading of the dwarves as a people

    who care nothing for the affairs of the day, but are content to mine their

    deeps for treasure.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

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