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  1. #1
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    Nov 2001
    California, USA
    At 02:16 AM 10/2/2003 -0600, you wrote:

    >What do you think? Birthright-ey enough?

    >Is this helpful to anyone`s campaign?

    I like it, and I find it helpful in a general way in that what I`m really

    looking for is a more generalized D20 method of addressing multiple check

    activities, rather than a single exposition regarding one type of multiple

    check action. This is something that I understand a couple of D20 products

    have tried to address, though rarely as completely as addressed by this set

    of negotiation rules. Aside from this one, the only multiple check action

    I can think of in D20 rules is the rules for seduction in Spycraft

    D20. Generally, what appears to be happening is that specific multiple

    skill check activities are being addressed by particular D20 products

    because we have no 3e/3.5/D20 guide to such things. Unfortunately, the

    rules presented by these D20 products tend to be rather specific since they

    are developed for a particular aspect of the campaign theme that they

    cover. A generalized system of portraying multiple check activities would

    be very nice.

    [We also need a couple more interactive skills, but that`s another issue....]

    There are a few dribs and drabs on how to handle multiple check actions in

    3e/3.5/D20. Take 20, or the occasional text in a skill description that

    describes how a character might craft an item or earn an income over a

    period of time using that skill. On the whole, however, the rules are

    either silent on the complexities of things like negotiation, seduction,

    forgery, research, interviews, etc. or the rules distill them down into an

    amazingly over simplistic single check.

    For BR purposes, of course, we have domain actions, but I`d suggest that

    there is at least two, probably three steps between a month long domain

    action and the single skill check of 3e/3.5/D20, and a like number of

    guidelines for after the domain level of play. Between a skill check and a

    domain action we need one set of generalized rules for multiple check

    actions (kind of like the non-combat version of a combat encounter--or a

    round by round version of a check) an extension of that into a day long

    activity (which I`d compare to a craft check--someone spending the whole

    day performing the same series of actions, or performing the "take 20"

    equivalent of a round by round multiple check action) and maybe a multiple

    day action before we can abstract into the domain level.

    IMO a domain action is essentially multiple, multiple check actions

    combined with multiple, single check actions and combined with the results

    of an "average" success rate of tasks delegated to specific individuals,

    and backed by a general bureaucratic infrastructure. That is, if we were

    to take a domain action and "adventure it out" into a more traditional D&D


    From there we might leap off into a "time jump" set of rules that might be

    used to handle things like a character going off to collect, or in a BR

    campaign establish the development of the continent since the death of

    Roele.... but I digress.

    Anyway, this set of rules for negotiation adds a few interesting tweaks to

    some of the things I`ve been considering for my own changes to the skill

    system, so I appreciate you posting it.


  2. #2
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Aside from this one, the only multiple check action
    I can think of in D20 rules is the rules for seduction in Spycraft
    Would you mind posting those rules? I've been trying to work out a good system for this for a while now, and the existing skills don't seem to do it justice.

  3. #3
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    California, USA
    At 07:32 PM 10/2/2003 +0200, Osprey wrote:

    >Would you mind posting those rules? I`ve been trying to work out a good

    >system for this for a while now, and the existing skills don`t seem to do

    >it justice.

    I really should make you ask more than once for a description of _multiple_

    check actions... but here it is. Keep in mind that Spycraft is a sort of

    gonzo secret agent game, so it`s generally designed for the spy movie

    genre, so it`s got some aspects that might be a bit geared towards that

    kind of theme. The vocabulary is a bit different, but I there`s nothing

    indecipherable to anyone familiar with D20 products. The system also uses

    critical successes and failures that requires spending an action point

    (from D20 Modern) which are kind of like hero points that one can spend on

    a variety of things, but all one really needs to know for this description

    is that one needs to spend a point in order to turn a "natural 20" into a

    critical success.

    First of all the system uses a "Disposition" rating for NPCs with seven

    steps; ally, helpful, friendly, neutral, unfriendly, hostile, adversary.

    There are three steps to a seduction:

    1. An Innuendo check to plant the seed of seduction.

    2. A Sense Motive check to read the reaction.

    3. A Bluff check to make an offer to the target.

    These three checks need not all be made in the same encounter. The DCs for

    these checks are determined by the starting disposition of the target

    towards the agent. 15 for neutral, 20 for unfriendly, 25 for hostile and

    30 for adversary. The target adds his/er intelligence modifier to the DC

    of the Innuendo check, charisma to the DC of the Sense Motive check, and

    wisdom to the DC for the Bluff check.

    If all three checks are successful the target "secretly" (as in "unknown to

    anyone but the seducer and the seduced") becomes helpful to the

    agent. Helpful NPCs will "risk injury (but not death) to aid" the

    agent. If any one of the checks is a critical success then the target

    becomes a temporary ally (allies will risk death) to the agent (the length

    of time is unspecified, but presumably until the end of the adventure when

    the credits roll and 007 then goes off to seduce again in the next movie,

    or when one of the continuous Bluff checks--see below--is failed.)

    If one or more of the checks fail then the seduction attempt fails and the

    target drops one negative step towards the PC. If one or more of the

    checks results in a critical failure the target`s attitude towards the

    agent drops to adversary (at which point they will take an opportunity to

    harm the agent, cheat him, etc.)

    Seduced character will actively try to aid the agent as long as they remain

    convinced of the agent`s sincerity, which requires a successful Bluff check

    by the agent for each particular action the target is asked to

    perform. The DC of this check is 15 plus the target`s wisdom modifier. If

    this fails the target is no longer seduced and drops a step in attitude

    from when the seduction started, and on a critical failure the target feels

    betrayed and his/er attitude goes directly to adversary.

    All in all, I think it`s a pretty cool way to sequence a multiple check

    action for a seduction with nice, logical game mechanics. I like the DCs,

    I like the modifiers, I think the skills are appropriate. There are one or

    two things I`d like to change about it--like I think a Diplomacy check

    could factor in there somewhere, and I like the checks in this proposed

    negotiation action that basically adds aid bonus(es) to subsequent

    checks. I think the Sense Motive check in this action is more like that,

    and should give a bonus (or not) to the subsequent Bluff check. Actually,

    I use a Tempt skill which I`d use rather than Bluff. There should probably

    be some discussion on the length of time required for each of these checks too.

    Despite those critiques, however, it`s general a very good outline

    IMO. Similar methods could be used for bribe attempts,

    extortion/blackmail, negotiation, haggling, etc.


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